I think it's really important to remember that people of conscience were attracted to the world of philanthropy at the time that it was really on the rise. Let's talk John Gardner, for example, an American giant, who was also a giant in terms of the presidency at Carnegie, who had been head of HEW. He understood government, he understood philanthropy, he understood the role that philanthropy played in American society. He described philanthropy as "the risk capital for the nonprofit world." What a phrase. He was there, philanthropy was there, to give creative people an opportunity to explore new ways to create the public good.