Mendele: Yiddish literature and language
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Contents of Vol. 1 no. 111
November 24, 1991
 
1) Query (Hershel Basser)
2) Various (Mikhl Herzog)
3) Double negatives (Harry Bochner)
4) Sissel again (Noyekh Miller)

1)----------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1991 18:06:01 -0500
From: fishbane@epas.utoronto.CA
Subject: RE: Mendele Vol 1.110

Does German have nicht kein or just kein?-- herschel basser

2)----------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 91  02:04 EST
From: ZOGUR@CUVMB.BITNET
Subject: RE: Mendele Vol 1.110

Aren Abramson and Robert Hoberman: Your comments on ayin
and nasalization are enlightening. Thanks.

Sissle / Thistle. Imagine that. Great!

Dave:   ni(sh)t alone can negate a verb: ikh vil nisht esn!
 When esn is treated as a noun 'food', keyn is compulsory:
 ikh vil nisht keyn esn. There are some contexts in which
 nisht alone can serve: er redt nisht (keyn) daytsh. We've
 yet to map the data. There is probably no context in which
 keyn can serve alone.

Mikhl

3)----------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 91 10:28:48 -0500
From: bochner@das.harvard.edu
Subject: RE: Mendele Vol 1.109

dave@lsuc.on.CA asks
> I'm still waiting for the followups about dialect variants
> where nisht alone, or kein alone, is sufficient for the
> negative.  Nu?

"Keyn" without "nisht" can be found in old songs and
proverbs; the example that comes to my mind is "Un az me
tsolt keyn dire-gelt" from the song "Dire-gelt". A proverb,
where rhythm is less important, would be a better example,
but I don't have time to dig around for one now.

There may be dialects in Eastern Yiddish where "Keyn"
without "nisht" is normal, but my impression is that it's
archaic almost everywhere.

-- Harry

4)----------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 91
From: nmiller@trincc
Subject: sissel

Before we issue a collective hekhsher on Bob Hoberman's
derivation of sissel from thistle, it's useful to remember
that the latter are eaten as far as I know only by birds,
especially the goldfinch.  The German name for the European
Goldfinch (carduelis carduelis) is in fact distelfink,
thistle finch.  I have a vague recollection that Goethe was
fond of the bird and mentioned it in his conversations with
Eckermann. Aber nisht dos bin ikh oysn.

However, since thistle _is_ about the same shape as caraway
and since _some_ of the bakers call caraway sissel, I tried
the backyard test.  Bob, I don't know about your thistle,
but any baker who tried to put the stuff I've got on a rye
bread would lose most of his dough.  Sorry about that.

On another front, I heard that a baker in a town nearby
uses genuine cherneshkes on his black bread and tells his
customers that they're (get this) wild onion seed.  Apart
from the question of whether a plant is wild when its seeds
are sold commercially and in bulk is the issue that engages
us. Tomorrow I'll make the trip and report.

Noyekh

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End of Mendele Vol 1.111