______________________________________________________
Contents of Vol. 3.246
February 25, 1994

1) A naye tokhter (Bob Berk)
2) Zachary Baker (Meyshe Alpert)
3) Feminine of "roshe" (Perets Mett)
4) Various (Mikhl Herzog)

1)----------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed Feb 23 20:48:06 1994
From: BERK%ZODIAC.bitnet@YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu
Subject: A naye tokhter

meylekhn un gitln: a greyse mazeltov aykh. i just wanted to note
that malke leye's alternative name - mallika - is also arabic and
almost turkish. that it is also urdu is then perhaps not such a
surprise - but tamil? did arabic influence extend that far?

bob berk

2)----------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed Feb 23 23:33:04 1994
From: meyshke@aol.com
Subject: Re: Zachary Baker

Vegn Zachary ( Meyshe Zkharye) Baker (Seth Wolitz/Feb 22/Mendele
3.244), iz omeyn veomeyn! Er iz a boki un a khokem godl, dertsu a
gantser knaker mit verter un a goldener mentsh, zol er lebn un
gezunt zayn.

Meyshe Alpert

3)----------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu Feb 24 05:34:58 1994
From: P.Mett@open.ac.uk (Percy Mett)
Subject: feminine of "roshe"

Mikhl shraybt:
>
>I need an authoritative spelling with nikud for the Aramaic
>feminine of "roshe"; i.e. for Yiddish "rOshete/reshAnte".
>
>Much obliged.

1. The Aramaic for roshe is =r'shio= resh-shin-yud-ayin-aleph with
feminine =r'shiatho= resh-shin-yud-ayin-tav-aleph. Sorry I don't
have a shas at the office to give you a reference.

2. Although rOshete is immediately understandable I don't recollect
ever hearing it; I would say/expect to hear "marsha'as"

a freylekhn purim tsu ale

perets

4)----------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu Feb 24 02:29:52 1994
From: ZOGUR@CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU
Subject: Various

1) 'gay' in Yiddish: Some years ago, I was called by the
lexicographer for DARE (Dictionary of American Regional English) who
was working on the etymology of Yiddish words in American regional
English: Did I know whether "feygele" meaning 'gay' was known in
European Yiddish. I knew, precisely when (in the late 60's), where
(in New York City), and from whom (Jim Matisoff)--are you out there
listening, Jim?--I had first heard the word used that way. I had
never heard it in the Yiddish speaking milieu in which I had grown
up (but then, we didn't talk about such things). I did agree to try
to check it out, chose some people who might have been expected to
know, from areas as diverse as Warsaw and Vilna, and gathered two
answers. Looking back on them, I guess they were predictable: a) bay
undz iz dos nit geven; b) intsome nish gevist fin azelekhe zakhn.

My guess, unsupported by any evidence, is that "feygele" in  English
is "Yiddishoid" expansion of 'fag'. Any takers?

By the way, if someone out there will tell me that I haven't yet
expounded on the question, I'll try to convince you that the Yiddish
name "feygl/feygele" has nothing to do with 'bird'.

2) Odem Vaytman: fun vanen shtamt ir aleyn (oder ayere eltern), vos
ir shraybt "hujz" un "ujs"? Tsofn-Belorus, nem ikh on, ober fun
voser shtot/shtetl?

Ikh nem oykh on az men zogt take bay aykh "tsuneyf"? Dos heyst,
gezogt: "afn tish", "ufshteyn", ober "tsuneyf"?

Tsi zenen faran bay aykh gramatishe kontekstn vu andere voltn gezogt
'a sakh' ober es volt NIT gepast ayer oysdsruk "a fule"?

3) Yitzhak Kertesz, thanks. I think the form you cite,
"rashshi'a:tah" is probably a good source for the Yiddish "reshAnte"
(also "reshA:nte, reshAYnte, and sometimes "reshAte") with
penultimate stress.

I feel pretty certain, by now, that Yiddish "rOshete/rU(:)shete"
(if not the rare "rOshnte/rU(:)shnte") is not simply the result a
shift of stress, but an innovation within Yiddish: Yiddish
"rOshe/rU(:)she" (from Hebrew) plus -te.

As for what you write as "mechutAnta", I would certainly have to
consider it Aramaic, not Hebrew plus Aramaic suffix. My concern,
though, is with a Western Yiddish variant "mekhUtnte". This is
easily construed as Yiddish "mekhutn" (from the Hebrew masculine
form) plus -te, parallel to "roshe" plus -te. No?

Are you suggesting that Yiddish "makhateneste" is derived from
"mechutenetah" in which -ah is the definite article? Could you then
account for the mysterious "s" in the Yiddish word? Isn't it easier
to posit a pleonastic Yiddish feminine (Hebrew feminine form plus
Aramaic feminine suffix)? On the order of "plOYniste",
"tsadEYkeste". Any thoughts on "baleboste", by the way?

And, finally, I didn't quite get your "subject" line. As for Yiddish
"rishes", are you using it in the Eastern or the Western Yiddish
sense?

Mikhl Herzog

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