Mendele: Yiddish literature and language ______________________________________________________ Contents of Vol. 4.117 September 30, 1994 1) Milgroymen un nisht mandlen; rov (Elliot Hersch Gertel) 2) Rov vs. Rabay (Arnie Kuzmack) 3) Pomegranate; gut yontef; "schmon" (Mikhl Herzog) 4) Pomegranate (Gaston L. Schmir) 1)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 29 Sep 1994 18:03:32 -0800 (PST) From: egertel@ccvax.fullerton.edu Subject: Milgroymen un nisht mandlen; rov Mekoyekh 4.114: 1. A yasher-koyekh Leybl Fridhandler! Akhuts soyne-yisroel un soyne-yidish, avade darfn ale makhn zikh bay zikh in der heym bay mendele! 2. Dan Leeson: "Pomegranate" af yidish iz (der) milgroym, loshn-rabim/mertsol: milgroymen. 3. Shloyme-Khayem Cohen: Kh'hob nisht keynmol nisht in ergets nisht gehert az der titl rov zol men barekhenen vi a peyorativ! Ir redt vi azoy me ruft a rov af english tsi af yidish? Vayl kh'meyn az me ruft a nisht-ortodoksisher rov af yidish "Rabay" ken _dos_ efsher zayn far gevise mentshn a baleydikung. Nor rufn a rov "rov" un dos zol zayn umdekheretsdik, neyn, _dos_ hob ikh keynmol nisht gehert! Quick summary af english: 1. Applause for Louis Fridhandler's welcoming attitude! 2. Yiddish for pomegranate is milgroym, plural: milgroymen. 3. I have never heard the title rov for a Rabbi thought of as demeaning in any way... Elliot Hersch Gertel PPS: While also sharing Lou's attitude about boors vis-a-vis Orange County (where I find myself in goles) I have to admit I have found anti-Yiddish sentiments even in far more enlightened corners of the world! 2)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 29 Sep 1994 23:48:33 -0400 (EDT) From: kuzmack@umbc.edu Subject: Re: Rov/Rabay I agree that we should minimize pejorative words about other Jews. In this case, however, it is the non-Orthodox Rabbis who are described with the pejorative term. Hundreds of years ago, a Rabbi was a "rov" in Yiddish, period. Yiddish-speaking and Hebrew-speaking Orthodox Jews started using the term English term "rabay" to express the notion that non-Orthodox Rabbis were not really Rabbis. Arnie Kuzmack 3)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Sep 94 01:32 EDT From: zogur@cuvmb.columbia.edu Subject: Pomegranate, gut yontef, a mystery, etc. I've been away for a while and am just catching up. Briefly: 1. Of Zellig Bach. I quote a novel I've just finished reading (Maichael Ondaatje _The English Patient_. Vintage, 1993.) Speaking of respondents to a lecture, he writes of them as "pertinently critical but never impertinent". A fitting description of Dr. Bach, a rarity in our midst. 2. Earlier queries about Zamosc and Chelm Both lie within the boundaries of Central Yiddish (i.e. "Polish Yiddish"): gayn, kimen, shlufn, leybn, tsa:t, houis, etc. 3. Dan Leeson: 'pomegranate' in Yiddish is "milgroym". Why the puzzle and the implied connection to the word for 'orange'? 4. Shleyme Axelrod: Just ruminating: None of the Yiddish greetings with "gut"-- gut shabes, gut yontef, gut yor--displays a gender inflection; or do they all? As you say, "yor" is neuter, and the uninflected "gut" is to be expected, but what of the other two? They're certainly masculine--der shabes (despite the Hebrew feminine) and der yontef--but, were they always so? I don't know about them in particular, but I do know that at an earlier stage of the language, Hebrew origin words were generally integrated as neuters in Yiddish: dos seyfer, dos mes, dos ponim, etc. They subsequently shifted gender categories (and today, only very few words are borrowed into the neuter: dos pensl, dos baysikl). Can we assume that "gut shabes" and "gut yontef" reflect earlier neuters stuck in this particular context? Probably not in view of two other expressions with non-Hebrew masculines: i) Doesn't Bashevis write "kurts-fraytik"? ii) The very earliest documented full-blown Yiddish sentence (in the makhzer of Worms, 1272) begins with the words "gut tog". It looks like something else is going on here. End of rumination. 4. A mystery. In a book recently published in Germany (Igor Trutanow, _Zwischen Koran und Coca Cola_. Aufbau Taschenbuch Verlag, Berlin, 1994), the author, on a journey through the central Asian republics of the former Soviet Union, writes (p. 131) of police activity as "dem schmon unterziehen". "Schmon bedeutet 'Durchfilzen'. Dieses Jargonwort hebraeischer Herkunft kam ueber das Jiddische ins Gulag-Russische. Die multinationale Gulag-Belegschaft fuehrte das Wort in die jeweiligen Muttersprachen ein." "Durchfilzen" seems to refer to something like a body-search. "Schmon"? Hebrew-origin? Anybody? A gut un gezunt yor aykh alemen. Mikhl Herzog 4)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 29 Sep 1994 20:08:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Gaston L Schmir Subject: Re: pomegranates According to Uriel Weinreich, the Yiddish word for pomegranate is "milgroym". Gaston L. Schmir ______________________________________________________ End of Mendele Vol. 4.117 Mendele has 2 rules: 1. Provide a meaningful Subject: line 2. Sign your article (full name please) A Table of Contents is now available via anonymous ftp, along with weekly updates. Anonymous ftp archives available on: ftp.mendele.trincoll.edu in the directory pub/mendele/files Archives available via gopher on: gopher.cic.net Send articles to: mendele@yalevm.ycc.yale.edu Other business: nmiller@mail.trincoll.edu