Mendele: Yiddish literature and language ______________________________________________________ Contents of Vol. 4.259 January 3, 1995 1) Splitting the list (Kayle Goodman) 2) Splitting the list (Ellen Prince) 3) Matke Boske/Meylekh Sobieskis tsaytn (Perl Teitelbaum) 4) Matke Boske (Moshe Waldoks) 5) Miriam Raskin (Bob Freedman) 6) Uvular 'r' in Russian (Leon Lipson) 7) Fershtot/forshtot (Anno Siegel) 8) Fershtot/forshtot (Perl Teitelbaum) 9) Dav(e)nen/gedabrt (Anno Siegel) 1)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 2 Jan 1995 16:45:00 -0800 From: ac939@lafn.org Subject: Splitting the list Re: Patty Becker's request to split the mendele list. My comment is _kholile_. We need to bring together and not split. The more the merrier!!! Ikh vintch ale mendelnikes a gezunter, a yor in velkhen s'zol mekuyem vern ale ayere farlangen. Fraynt Kayle oykh Fraynd Kayle vayl ir zent ale kmat kroyvem. Kayle Goodman 2)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 03 Jan 1995 12:16:05 EST From: ellen@central.cis.upenn.edu Subject: Splitting the list in response to patty becker's suggestion, i for one certainly have no problem with splitting the list. it would be a pleasure, in fact, to be able to discuss the yiddish language on the (only) yiddish list without hearing complaints about 'suffering in silence' etc. (would that they did!) but first a few things. 1. just out of curiosity, may i ask those who are unhappy why they joined an academic list on yiddish--yes, mendele is an academic list on yiddish--if they have no interest in academic questions about yiddish? 2. but perhaps some recent (and not-so-recent) arrivals may not be aware of the history of mendele and its intended nature. once upon a time, there was a list called mail.jewish, run by dave sherman. it was very eclectic. some among us wanted a place where we could have more serious discussions (and not receive the less serious ones). to this end, thanks to noyekh miller, the list was split into mail.jewish, to continue as the 'less serious' list, and mendele, the new 'more serious' list. some time thereafter, dave decided to can mail.jewish and now mendele is all there is. 3. if dave is still willing, or if there's someone else out there able and willing, i propose that mail.yiddish be resurrected, with the two lists having their originally intended purposes and with subscribers taking care to post their msgs to the appropriate list. ellen prince 3)---------------------------------------------------- Date: 02 Jan 95 20:34:08 EST From: 74031.775@compuserve.com Subject: Matke Boske/Meylekh Sobieskis tsaytn Marjorie Schonhaut Hirshan: My guess is that the expression your mother used to describe something very old is not "fun der Matke Botkes tsaytn", but Matke Boskes, from Polish [Matka Boska] , literally, mother of God, referring to the Virgin Mary. The other phrase used to denote something very old is "fun dem Meylekh Sobieskis tsaytn" which refers to the Polish king Jan Sobieski who drove the Turks from Vienna in 1683 . A very long time ago, indeed. That might have sounded to your friend like "Eretze Betzkes tzeitn". Just a guess. Perl Teitelbaum 4)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 03 Jan 1995 09:17:39 -0500 (EST) From: waldoks@binah.cc.brandeis.edu Subject: Matke Boske Doesn't this usually refer to the Black Madonna of Czentstochowa. Or is it the name of the Virgin Mary in Polish? Moshe Waldoks 5)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 02 Jan 1995 21:52:25 EST From: rfreedman@shrsys.hslc.org Subject: Miriam Raskin Max Rosenfeld of Philadelphia requests biographical information about Miriam Raskin, born in Slonim, White Russia in 1889 and died in New York on October 18th, 1973. She was an active member of the Bund in Russia and served a year in Petersburg prison. Emigrated to the U.S. in 1920. Her first stories were published in Tsukumft. Later stories were published in the Forverts. In 1941 a collection of her work was published under the title "Shtile Lebns". A copy of the book is not available to Max. Does anyone know where a copy can be located. Bob Freedman 6)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 01 Jan 1995 12:50:31 -0500 From: llipson@mail.law.yale.edu Subject: Uvular 'r' in Russian 1. Years ago, chatting with an elderly Soviet jurist, I noticed that in Russian he regularly used the uvular 'r'. (He was patently not Jewish.) I asked him about it, saying that I had been told it used to be a mark of the (French-literate) aristocracy. He grinned nervously and said it used to be a mark of the gilded youth (zolotaia molodezh', jeunesse doree). Later someone told me that that jurist was the son (left side of the bed) of a prince. 2. In a book of anecdotes published in the Soviet Union toward the end of the Soviet period appears the following (which seems to refer by innuendo not to aristocrats but to Jews): Interviews with applicants for a post at a desirable research institute are conducted by a computer, which initiates each conversation. (First applicant) Computer: Zdravstvuite (hello). Applicant: Zdravstvuite. C: Have you any relatives abroad? A: Yes. C: Goodbye. (Second applicant) C: Zdravstvuite. A: Zdravstvuite. C: Have you any relatives abroad? A: No. C: Were you ever convicted of a crime? A: Yes. C: Goodbye. (Third applicant) C: Zdravstvuite. A: Zdravstvuite. C: Have you any relatives abroad? A: No. C: Were you ever convicted of a crime? A: No. C: Were you ever expelled from the Party? A: Yes. C: Goodbye. (Fourth applicant) C: Zdravstvuite. A: Zdgavstvuite. C: Goodbye. Leon Lipson 7)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 3 Jan 95 09:56:20 +0100 From: anno4000@w172zrz.zrz.tu-berlin.de Subject: Fershtot/forshtot Raphael (refoyl) Finkel: as you guessed, "forshtot" (also "firshtot") is just a part of Grodne proper: suburb. Anno Siegel 8)---------------------------------------------------- Date: 02 Jan 95 20:34:40 EST From: 74031.775@compuserve.com Subject: Fershtot/forshtot A fOrshtot lebn Grodne iz vos men ruft af English "suburb" oder "outskirts of town". Andere verter vos heybn zikh on mit for- zaynen: fOrshpayz= appetizer, fOrshul= preschool, fOrshtelung= performance, fOrgefil=premonition A gut gezunt yor. Perl Teitelbaum 9)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 3 Jan 95 11:04:12 +0100 From: anno4000@w172zrz.zrz.tu-berlin.de Subject: Dav(e)nen/gedabrt Thanks to all who replied. This riddle from _A khazene oyf shabes_ has been bugging me for years. I especially like the suggestion that the "br" sound may be an imitation of the horse, or the wagoners call, though I agree with Perl Teitelbaum that "Brrr" is likely used to make a horse stop, not to make him go. I mean, the theme of the song is how each of the tree balebotim perceives the khazn's performance to mesh perfectly with his personal everyday life. So, for the balagole, a sound from his daily work enters even the word he uses instead of "davnen". Anno Siegel ______________________________________________________ End of Mendele Vol. 4.259 Mendele has 2 rules: 1. Provide a meaningful Subject: line 2. Sign your article (full name please) A Table of Contents is now available via anonymous ftp, along with weekly updates. Anonymous ftp archives available on: ftp.mendele.trincoll.edu in the directory pub/mendele/files Archives available via gopher on: gopher.cic.net Send articles to: mendele@yalevm.ycc.yale.edu Send change-of-status messages to: listserv@yalevm.ycc.yale.edu a. 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