Mendele: Yiddish literature and language ______________________________________________________ Contents of Vol. 4.326 February 16, 1995 1) Nisht geshtoygn nisht gefloygn (Moises Kijak) 2) Nisht geshtoygn nisht gefloygn (Louis Fridhandler) 3) Nisht geshtoygn nisht gefloygn (Bob Werman) 4) Nisht geshtoygn nisht gefloygn (Moshe Waldoks) 5) Nisht geshtoygn nisht gefloygn (Barry Walfish) 6) Doktoyrim un naronim (Leybl Botvinik) 1)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 09:02:40 ARG From: administ@kijak.recom.edu.ar Subject: Nisht geshtoygn nisht gefloygn di meinung fuem oisdruk "nisht geshtoygn, nisht gefloygn" iz alemen bakant. Vos s'iz zikher interesant iz dos visn fun vanen er nemt zikh. Mainer a fraint, Rabiner Avrom Platkin, a groiser idish-kener, hot es mir azoi oifgeklert: s'iz an humoristisher komentar vegn Ishus aroifshtaign un aroifflien glaikh in himl nokh zain oifshtein tkhies hameisim. Eigntlekh volt zikh gedarft zogn: nisht geshtign, nisht gefloygn, ober kedei es zol klingen beser, hot men geendert geshtign oif geshtoygn. Moises Kijak 2)---------------------------------------------------- Date: 15 Feb 95 12:33:13 EST From: 74064.1661@compuserve.com Subject: Nisht geshtoygn nisht gefloygn Ronald Florence (4.324) asks for a _literate_ translation of "nisht geshtoygn nisht gefloygn." Whenever I use it, I mean to say, "Oh yeah? Baloney!" I mean to say that what I have just read or heard does not pass a reality check, and I do not believe in it. The _literal_ translation is (I think) "Didn't climb didn't fly." I remember reading (in that good old resource, 'somewhere') that it first arose as a skeptical Yiddish comment on Christian belief, as shorthand for "Didn't climb [up from the grave] didn't fly [up to heaven]." Louis Fridhandler 3)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 13:24:07 -0500 (EST) From: awerman@panix.com Subject: Nisht geshtoygn nisht gefloygn I am not sure that my translation is literate, that is for others to judge, but the expression refers to claims made for Jesus by Christians and denied by Jews. He neither rose [from the dead] nor ascended [to Heaven], the Jews would say. Literate[?] translation: "'Taint so, McGee!" Bob Werman 4)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 16:32:13 -0500 (EST) From: waldoks@binah.cc.brandeis.edu Subject: Nisht geshtoygn nisht gefloygn Loyt mayn zikuron- I remember that the phrase is referring to Jesus' supposed exploits as described in a medieval work, Toldos Yeshu. All this means is that just as Jesus never ascended (on the cross?) and as he never flew (with the help of the Holy Shem Hameforash [the 72 letter Name?]) the matter at hand is nonsense- never was and never will be. It's one of my favorite expressions. mit kovid Moshe Waldoks 5)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 12:04:53 EST From: walfish@vax.library.utoronto.ca Subject: Nisht geshtoygn nisht gefloygn The expression nisht geshtoygen, nisht gefloygen is used to dismiss a report as totally without foundation. English equivalents might be: poppycock, balderdash, rubbish, in a pig's valise. In Hebrew: Lo dubim ve-lo ya'ar. It seems to have originated as a put-down of Christian claims re Jesus' resurrection and assumption, i.e., literally he didn't ascend and he didn't fly. Ignaz Bernstein, in his Yudishe Shprikhverter, cites the following anecdote: A yud hot gehat a vikuah mit a krist. Der krist hot zikh gevundert az der yud vil nit gloybn on di himlfahrt, un hot ihm dermahnt az Moyshe Rabenu iz dokh oykh geshtoygen in der himl arayn. Deroyf hot ihm der yud dos geentfert. Barry Walfish Toronto 6)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 16 Feb 95 19:08:14 IST From: leybl@telecomm.tadiran.co.il Subject: doktoyrim un naronim in Mendele V4.313 shraybt Pascal Rohn dos folgnds, vos hot mir dermont in mayne yugnt yorn in di 1970er un '80er in Montreal: > Tangentially, why is it that the plural of 'doktor' should be 'doktoyrim'? > Is it because the word connotes a higher education, as knowledge of Hebrew > does? ikh dermon zikh, als kind, flegn mir bazukhn di yidishe folks bibliotek in montreal, a vikhtiker tsenter fun yidish kultur un visn. 'mir' heyst es: mayn tate (dovid botvinik) vos hot gefirt dem oyto, ikh, un undser tayern fraynd, mayn lerer moyshe-mordkhe shafir (z"l). in oyto zaynen oft mitgeforn andere, arayngerekhnt mayne yingere brider oder andere shrayber, lerer un kultur mentshn. di vos hobn gekent m.m. shafirn veysn az er iz nit nor geven a lerer fun yidish un a guter poet, nor oykh a vunderlekhn kener fun yidish (er flegt ober zogn oyf zikh: halevay volt ikh gekent yidish azoy gut vi ikh ken daytsh...) vi gezogt, zaynen mir geforn 'in bibliotek hern a lektsie'. zeyer balernevdike lektsies fun gute shraybers, lektorn, journalistn, un azoy vayter. dos iz forgekumen geveyntlekh in a shabeys-tsu-nakhts. dos vos ikh bin oysn iz folgndiks: shafir fleg beshas di lektsie farnotirn verter un oysdrukn. ikh hob shpeter dos oykh ongehoybn ton. mir flegn in oyto say ahin, un say oyf tsurik, diskusirn yidishe verter un vertlekh, folklor, literatur. oft a tayne tsi a shayle iber dem banuts fun a vort bay a khoshevn lektor un azoy vayter. (*** derfar zaynen di interesante diskusyies oyf mendele mir azoy tayer). eynmol, iz take oysgekumen tsu redn vegn ende 'im'. shafir hot ongehoybn oysrekhenen verter 'oyf yidish' vos endikn zikh mit 'im'. dakht zikh, az er hot getrofn akht. ikh dermon zikh nor doktoyrim un naronim. efsher veyst emetser nokh? leybl botvinik netanya ______________________________________________________ End of Mendele Vol. 4.326 Mendele has 2 rules: 1. Provide a meaningful Subject: line 2. Sign your article (full name please) A Table of Contents is now available via anonymous ftp, along with weekly updates. Anonymous ftp archives available on: ftp.mendele.trincoll.edu in the directory pub/mendele/files Archives available via gopher on: gopher.cic.net Send articles to: mendele@yalevm.ycc.yale.edu Send change-of-status messages to: listserv@yalevm.ycc.yale.edu a. For a temporary stop: set mendele nomail b. To resume delivery: set mendele mail c. To subscribe: sub mendele first_name last_name d. 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