Mendele: Yiddish literature and language
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Contents of Vol. 6.112
November 29, 1996

1) Zelbstmord (Joachim Neugroschel)
2) Yidish avade, ober on moyre (Mechl Asheri)
3) Yidish un batsiungn tsvishn yidn un nit-yidn (Ken Benyomin Moss)
4) About typical Yiddish children's activities (Pawel Brunon Dorman)

1)----------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 12:26:38 -0500 (EST)
From: achim1@cris.com
Subject: Zelbstmord

I'm afraid D. Herskovic misunderstood my use of the model sentence "er
iz zelbstmord bagangen" (which he misquotes) [6.109].  I was citing it
as an example of how German borrowings are grammatically changed in
Yiddish, i was not recommending or attacking it, but merely describing
the fate of one "daytshmerish" import in Yiddish.  since i'm not a
native speaker of Yiddish, I can only describe and not prescribe.  I can
neither object to "daytshmerish" nor defend it--I'm only interested in
how it's used by Yiddish writers and speakers.

ikh meyn az D. Herskovic hot falsh farshtanen mayn nitsn dem muster-zats
"er iz zelbstmord bagangen" (vos er tsitirt im falsh).  Ikh hob dem
dozikn zatz tsitirt vi a bayshpil fun a "daytshmerizm" voz vet
grammatish gebitn af yidish--ikh hob es nisht attakirt un nisht
rekomendirt.  az ikh bn nisht keyn natirlikher yidish-reder, ken ikh nor
bashraybn un nisht firshraybn.  "daytshmerish" ken ikh nisht farteydikn
un nisht kritikirn--ikh vil nor forshn vi azoy es vet genitst fun
yidishe shraybers un reders....

Joachim Neugroschel

2)----------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 22:54:59 +0200
From: donnom@netvision.net.il
Subject: Yidish avade, ober on moyre

Mit'n letztn brif fun Joachim Neugroschl bin ikh maskim: a Yidish reder
vos er badint zikh mit a "daytshmerish" loshn, lekhol ha pokhes tut es
beshas er redt Yidish. Ver s'blaybt bay redn oder shraybn nor English,
hot kayn rekht nit tsu taynen az imitsn zogt "bite" bimkom "Zayt azoy
gut".

Un mkoyakh "please", vo shteyt es geshribn az ale Yidish reder redn oykh
English? Lomir nit fargesn az in Latayn Amerika aleyn zaynen faran
etlikhe por hundert toyznt Yidn katori redn Yidish, a gutn kheylek
tog-teglikh. Dort hob ikh gehert i "bite" i "zayt azoy gut", ober
keynmol nit "por favor".

Fundestvegn hob ikh far Reb Joachim a shayle. To vos far a balgayve zol
zayn a yid in zikh haltn far a "Yidishist"?  Atomer di Yidishistishe
bevegung hot sof-sof matzliakh geven? Aderabe: a poshete tsushmeterung.
Emes, der Arbeter Ring lebt nokh, borukh HaShem, ober vifl Sholom
Aleichem Folkshules zet men haynt tsutog in di gasn, afile fun di
krakhn, kal vekhoymer di klenere shtet? Der emes iz az yidishkayt ken
men hobn on yidish, ober yidish on yidishkayt vet sof kol sof umkumen.
Di farbindung tsvishn yidishn lebn un yidisher shprakh iz nit nor shtark
un breyt, nor prost un poshet an absolut noytvendikayt.

In shaykhes mit demzelbn inyen, hob ikh geleynt mit groysn interes di
por verter fun Bryna Bogoch tsu Leybel Botvinik. Azelkhe mevines iz vert
a mayontek, vayl es bagrundet zikh oyf takhlis shebe takhlis. Nor ayn
zakh volt ikh gevolt visn: vifl, akurat, zaynen di maydlekh vos zay
lernen in di yidish-redndiker shules vos zi hot dermonen. Freg ikh, vayl
bifrat vi zi hot gezogt, hobn asakh mer maydlekh gehert redn Yidish ayder
yinglekh.

Ober vegn Mendele, shraybn Yidish mit goyishe oysyes iz, nu..nu... Nit
shver iz es tsu farshtayn farvos aza sakh Mendelenikes hobn lib beser
English tsu shraybn, khotsh dos vos Reb Joachim bashtayt iz loyt mayn
meynung glat emes: zey vos viln Yidish shoymer u-matsl zayn darfn ton
vos meglikh es tsu banitsn. Ober, in vos far an oyfn un in vosara mos
yeder ayner ken. Maskim bin ikh drinen mit Dovid Yosef Herskovic: zayn
a boki behilkes Yidish volt geven take a voyle zakh, ober a grayz in
dikduk iz nishto far vos tsu shlogn al khet. Vi gezogt is geven bay
Thomas Jefferson, "The only people who don't make mistakes are people
who don't do anything".

Mechl Asheri

3)----------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 23:16:39 -0800 (PST)
From: kmoss@leland.stanford.edu
Subject: Yidish un batsiungn tsvishn yidn un nit-yidn

In zayn entfer tsu Dovid Braun hot M. Asheri getaynet [6.110], az dos
vos farsheydene khsidishe grupes redn Ungarish oder andere nisht-yidishe
shprakn tsvishn zikh bavayzt nisht, az zey hobn zikh fargenumen mit
zeyere nisht-yidishe shkheynim.  Kh'hob nisht keyne kvalifikatzies
optsushatzn zeyn shtelung.

Ober git er vi a moshl fun aza fenomen (fun a frume kehile vos iz geven
"a completely self-contained community" khotsh me hot gekent a
nisht-yidishe shprakh) der shtot Mezbizh beys der BeShT hot do gevoynt.
Moshe Rosman hot nor vos aroysgegebn a bukh vegn dem Baal Shem, "The
Founder of Hasidism," vu er bavayzt, az di higishe nisht-yidn hobn
gekent dem BeShT vi a "Doktor Baalszem" un s'ken zayn, az zay hobn efile
genitzt zayne talantn.  In algemeyn, iz es klor fun zayn bukh, az s'iz
do geven fil-minike un kisederdike batsiungen tsvishn yidn un nisht-yidn
in Mezbizh; un dos iz beheskem mit der bester visnshaft un forshung vegn
yidishn lebn in Poyln far di tseteylungn.

Ken Benyomin Moss

4)----------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 96 12:05:34 CET
From: dorman@plearn.edu.pl
Subject: About typical Yiddish children's activities

I see that it would be helpful to give little bibliography on that
subject. So the list is below:

Sh. Anski, Yiddish Children's Folksongs, in: Folklor un etnografye,
           Vilno-Warsaw-New York, 1925, pages: 195-214.

W. M. Feldman, The Jewish Child: Its History, Folklore, Biology,
               and Sociology, London, 1917.

N. Hurvitz, Jews and Jewishness in the Street Rhymes of American
            Children, Jewish Social Studies XVI, 1954, pages:
            135-150.

A. Landau, Holekreisch, Zeitschrift des Vereins fur Volkskunde IX,
           1899, pages: 72-77.

J. C. Lauterbach, The Naming of Children in Jewish Folklore, Ritual
                  and Practice, Yearbook of the Central Conference
                  of American Rabbis XLII (1932), pages: 316-360.

Sh. Lehman, The Children's World, in: M. Vanvild, Bay undz yidn,
            Warsaw, 1923, pages: 111-149.

R. Liliental, Dziecko z*ydowskie, Prace Komisji etnograficznej
              Polskiej Akademii Umieje'tnos'ci 3, Cracow, 1927.

Sh.-Z. Pipe, Yiddish Children's Songs and Ditties, Yivo-bleter
             XII, 1937, pages: 494-507.

Sh.-Z. Pipe, Yiddish Children's Games, Yivo-bleter X, 1936,
             pages: 39-47.

R. Rubin, Nineteenth-Century Yiddish Folksongs of Children in
          Eastern Europe, Journal of American Folklore LXV, 1952,
          pages: 227-254.

Y. Shtern, A kheyder in Tyszowce, Yivo Annual of Jewish Social
           Science V, 1950, pages: 152-171.

Y. Shtern, Kheyder un bes-medresh, New York, 1950.

              Polish letters:
              z* - z with dot over
              e' - e with tail
              s' - s with dash over

the best wishes.

Pawel Brunon Dorman

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End of Mendele Vol. 6.112