Mendele: Yiddish literature and language
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Contents of Vol.6.188
January 6, 1997

1) Kheshbm/khezhbm (Joachim Neugroschel)
2) Kheshbm/khezhbm (Ruben Frankenstein)
3) Mendele un derekh-erets (Marjorie Schonhaut Hirshan)
4) Yidishe verterbukh un der rambam (Meylekh Viswanath)

1)----------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 19:27:12 -0500 (EST)
From: achim1@cris.com
Subject: Kheshbm/khezhbm

In an earlier posting I wrote that Weinrich's dictionary indicates
"khezhbm" as the pronunciation of the word spelled "kheshbon".  David
Herscovic claims [6.186] that I wrote "kheshbm" (which I didn't, I
wrote "khezhbm").  D. H. also claims that my pronunciation--i.e. the one
the Dictionary indicates on p. 188:  "khezhbm/khezhboynes"--is
incorrect.

I'm not sure how D.H. would support his claim, but I do prefer going
along with Weinreich, who was not only a native speaker of Yiddish but a
scholar of Yiddish.  It's a normal process in Yiddish (and in other
languages): partial assimilation.  In this case the "sh" is voiced to
assimilate to the following "b" and the final "n" becomes "m" to
assimilate to the preceding "b."  Thus "lebn" and "nebn" are pronounced
"lebm" and "nebm" etc.

The latter "n" to "m" change after a "b" is so common throughout Yiddish
that I'm surprised D.H. has never noticed it.

He is, of course, at liberty to pronounce "khezhbm" any way he wishes
and even transmit his pronunciation to his children.  But I prefer to go
along not only with Weinreich but with every native Yiddish speaker I've
ever heard.  With so few Yiddish speakers in the world, standardization
is very useful.  And if one is going to read Yiddish literature, one
should know the pronunciation--especially of words that are not spelled
phonetically.

D.H. certainly has the right to disagree with me, but I believe he ought
to quote me correctly.

I'm curious where and how D.H. learned Yiddish.

Such pronunciation details are discussed in Weinreich's _College
Yiddish_, and I would again advise anyone seriously interested in
standard Yiddish to work through that textbook.

Joachim Neugroschel

2)----------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 19:49:58 +0100 (MEZ)
From: frankens@mail.uni-freiburg.de
Subject: Kheshbm/khezhbm

David Herskovic doubts the correct pronounciation of the yiddish
equivalent for the word "account". Weinreich prefers khezhbM in spite of
the spelling with N according to the hebrew kheshbon,while Jankev
Lewin`s verterbikhl fun hebreish-yidishe verter (mit der rikhtiker
ojshprakh "kheshbn". It is a pity so few dictionaries give a damn on
pronounciation. Ignaz Bernstein gives the german transcription
"Cheschbojn". It is the opposite case of Yontev/ yontef in spite of the
hebrew and yiddish spelling yoMtov. While in this case it is accepted
rule that the M is changed into N, but not all dictionaris follow it,
for example Lewin prefers "yomtev" and "yomtoyvim". I would follow in
any case Uriel Weinreich.

Ruben Frankenstein

3)----------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 09:06:54 -0500
From: shirshan@aol.com
Subject: Mendele un derekh-erets

For two years on Mendele, I have found its sum to be awesomely greater
than its parts.

The pilpul, the creative discussion, the analysis, the sharing, the
idealism, all cloaked in the downy fleece of respect for our different
levels, our different interests, our different starting points, have
enriched us, enlightened us and delighted us. The oytser on Mendele is
the neshomedike quality of the people, and what high quality!

With all its fantastically knowledgeable Yiddish scholars and superior
teachers not one has sneered and caned a questioner, nor even gently
rapped a wrist with a ruler. An atmosphere of open trust and sharing
reigned, and was the stage-set for learning, as it must be for education
on any level to enfold.

So I must speak out (di eltern hobn mir azoy gelernt) for all of us at
some recent posts decrying "many low quality of Yiddish postings on
Mendele" and that "subscribers seldom read Yiddish" which is "too bad"
and so on.  They're pompous, arrogant, self-aggrandizing and bullying.

We call our list Mendele, not Zarathustra.

Marjorie Schonhaut Hirshan
Boynton Beach, Florida

4)----------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 14:27:00 -0500
From: viswanat@pacevm.dac.pace.edu
Subject: Yidishe verterbukh un der rambam

Letstns hobn mir a sakh gehert vegn gilad gevaryahus opshatsungen un
taynes vegn vaynraykhs verterbukh.  A sakh mentshn zaynen geven in kas
vos er hot genitst a vort vos iz nisht tsu nitsn in shaykhes mit a
godel-hador un hot azoy baleydikt dem ondenk fun uriel vaynraykhn.  Hot
gilad geentfert az es iz nor geveyn a shpas, nit keyn baleydikung.

Mir iz es take interesant vos azoy fil mentshn zaynen geven in kas vegn
aza inyen (ikh zug nisht az mikhl un die andere zaynen nisht gerekht),
nor keyner hot nisht geshribn vegn unzer shames verter legabe der(dem?)
rambam (vos er iz zikher zokheh khotsh di zelbe mos koved vi vaynraykh).
Noyekh hot im bashraybt vi a '... medical quack, court toady ....'  Ken
men taynen az noyekh hot nor gevolt makhn a 'spoof.'  Ikh vil ober
taynen az a spoof vegn der rambam af mendele iz nisht keday, a spoof
vegn vaynraykh volt geven a sakh mer vert.  Vayl mit aza oylem vi
mendele, iz vaynraykh mer a 'sacred cow' vi der rambam.  Af mendele vert
a spoof vegn der rambam neenter tsu a baleydikung (khotsh ikh nem on az
dos iz nisht geven unzer shames tsil). der tsil fun a 'spoof' iz nisht
tsu baleydikn nor tsu gebn a shtokh, tsu bamien az me zol trakhtn a bisl
mer un a bisl mer kritish vegn dem mentsh.

Ikh zey az ikh bin geven gerekht.  (Khotsh ikh volt beser nisht gezen
aza 'spoof' nisht vegn der rambam un nisht vegn vaynraykh.

Meylekh Viswanath

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End of Mendele Vol. 6.188