Mendele: Yiddish literature and language ______________________________________________________ Contents of Vol. 07.104 November 19, 1997 1) Davenen Again (Alexis Manaster Ramer) 2) Virtualer tsienistisher kongres 1997 (Sholem Berger) 3) Beni Warshawsky & dav(e)nen (Meyer Wolf) 4) a katz ibern vaser (Mendy Fliegler) 5) A Nyekter (Pessl Beckler-Semel-Stern) 6) Meshiekhs tsaytn: YIVO-oysleyg in forverts (Sholem Berger) 7) "Geshikhte fun der yidisher shprakh" (Paul (Hershl) Glasser) 8) A Yiddish radio jingle (Lee Dembart) 9) about KlezKamp (Ari Davidow) 1)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 22:32:05 -0500 (EST) From: manaster@umich.edu Subject: Davenen Again Mr. Warshawsky makes an eloquent plea, but does not take up my challenges, so let me be more explicit. If his informants are such good etymologists, I really must insist that he find out what such informants say about tsholnt, antshpoyzn, and nebekh. If he can find even one Poylisher speaker of Yd who, w/o the benefit of linguistics, knows that the first two are of Romance origin, that the second specifically is of Italian, the first of French provenience, and that the third is not merely Slavic but specifically either Old Czech or Old Sorbian, then I will concede that he and his informants have every right to be heard on the subject of etymology. But if not, then I hope that he will be equally willing to concede that etymology is a proper subject for people with training in historical linguistics. As for specifics, I would like to know how many Yiddish verbs there are that derive from Aramaic (as opposed to Hebrew), how many Yiddish words of any kind derive from Aramaic d+noun phrases, how well the phrase mitsva d'avanan is attested, how this etymology explains the precise sense of davenen which Meyer Wolf has so well explained, and above all how Mr. Warshawsky and his informant would explain the form davnen, which I think must clearly be the more original of the two attested variants in modern Yiddish. I suspect that such problems do not even occur to amateur etymologists, which is precisely the point. I will add that on the plus side, this etymology accounts for the vowels and consonants much better than any of the other alternatives I know of (but the fact remains that the Hebrew etymology I have been defending works better because it seems to account for the missing 'e' in davnen). Alexis Manaster Ramer (n.b. the last name is 'Manaster Ramer') 2)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 00:18:33 -0500 From: "Sholem Berger" Subject: Virtualer tsienistisher kongres 1997 Der virtualer tsienistisher kongres iz an internet-konferents vos zol zayn a paralel un a tsugreytung tsum emesdikn kongres in yerusholaim, vos kumt for hayntikn detsember. Ikh zukh balonem tsu farshraybn zikh in a post-reshime vos zol diskutirn di politik fun medines-yisroel legabe yidish, un rekomendirn di mitlen vos me zol onnemen letoyves yidish in tefutses un in yisroel. Af tsu farshraybn zikh in undzer grupe, shikt an elektronish brivl dem adres majordomo@jazo.org.il mitn tekst subscribe congress-27 Shraybt nisht ayer nomen in tekst fun brivl. Nokh informatsye vegn undzer grupe git a kuk afn vebbletl funem virtualn kongres baym adres http://209.25.84.145/congress/commit1.htm The Virtual Zionist Congress 1997 is designed to be an Internet parallel to and preparation for the Zionist Congress to take place this December in Jerusalem. I am leading a discussion group to prepare recommendations about concrete pro-Yiddish actions which should be taken in the Diaspora and Israel. Please sign up if you're interested by writing to the e-mail address majordomo@jazo.org.il with the message: subscribe congress-27 No name should be included in the text of the e-mail. For more information about the congress and our group take a look at the Web page http://209.25.84.145/congress/commit1.htm Sholem Berger New York 3)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 23:18:14 -0800 From: Meyer Wolf Subject: Beni Warshawsky & dav(e)nen Beni Warshawsky is certainly right [07.103] to excoriate scholarship divorced of common sense. Bute even with loads of common sense, a little scholarship doesnt hurt. Mr. Warshawsky writes: ".. it is convincing that the mitsve of prayer was referred to as the mitsve d'Avanan (from our fathers) and hence dav(e)nen rather than tfile. As for the term d'Avanan itself, it is comparable in structure to the terms Rabanan(our rabbis) and Maranan(our Masters)." It is one thing to promote the derivation of dav(e)nen from an Aramaic source; it is quite another to point to an apparently made-up Aramaic word to provide that source. Unless the dictionaries are wrong, the Aramaic word for 'fathers' is, in the Ashkenazic pronunciation, avohon, 'our fathers' avohosano, neither of which which accounts for a Polish Hasid's avanan and its unexpected Sephardic vocalization. Nor is it clear what he means by his statement that in Yiddish one says dav(e)nen rather than tfile. One does say tfile ton as well as dav(e)nen Meyer Wolf 4)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 15:50:10 -0200 From: emenems@juno.com (Mendy Fliegler) Subject: a katz ibern vaser Far Leonard Prager [TMR 01.025]: "Avu kimt take a katz ibern vaser".. Vi azoy koyft men dus bikhl? Vu koyft men es? Vifil kost es? Nu, ken men dos krign in di Faraynikte Shtatn? Azoy in der velt arayn toyg nisht... Mendy Fliegler. 5)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 16:28:25 -0500 (EST) From: Pessl@aol.com Subject: A Nyekter Di mame mayne, Tillie (Teme) Beckler, mien zol zi zikh hot tomid gezungen. Tsvishn di teater lider vos zi flegt zingen iz geven a lid, "A Nyekter." Ikh gedenk nit dos gantze lid, ober eynike strofes zingt men azoy: Kh'bin gevezn a veyter, a kloks apreyter bay der mashin Kh'hob shoyn ales, ales getin, un ikh bin shoyn nit grin. Fun tsores un hinger gevorn a zinger glat in a khor Itst bin ikh an aktyor, un ikh makh groys firon, vayl Ikh bin a nyekter, ikh bin a nyeter Ikh shpil shmendrik kony-leml Ikh ken raytn oyf a kem. Ikh bin a nyekter. Zogt mir vi gefel ikh aykh, far a nyter! Tsi ken emetzer fun di Mendelyaner-m'vinim dos lid, ver hot es geshribn, un vi azoy zingt men di iberike strofes? A sheynem dank Pessl Beckler-Semel-Stern 6)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 16:30:59 -0500 From: "Sholem Berger" Subject: Meshiekhs tsaytn: YIVO-oysleyg in forverts Az me lebt derlebt men: Forverts, 14tn november 1997, zayt 13 Der "forverts" vet gedrukt vern mit eynhaytlekhn yivo-oysleyg Mir hobn shoyn mit a tsayt tsurik geshribn, az der "forverts" greyt zikh ibertsugeyn tsum zetsn un drukn ale artiklen, notitsn un nayesn af dem eynhaytlekhn yivo-oysleyg. Es iz geven farbundn mit a sakh shverikaytn un gelt-hatsoes. Di "forverts"- farvaltung hot ober baytsukumen ale shverikaytn, vayl di merste yidishe tsaytungen un bikher vern shoyn gedrukt mitn nayem [!] yivo-oysleyg. ... Itst veln [azelkhe] verter [vi yid, yidish, un yingl] geshribn vern mit a khirik untern tsveytn yud... Der shtumer alef vert itst oykh aroysgenumen... Es vern oykh gemakht andere enderungen, vos der leyener vet zen un bamerkn; un mir zenen zikher, az ir vet zayn tsufridn fun dem. Farshteyt zikh, az mir veln di enderungen aynfirn behadrogedik; dos heyst, az far a geviser tsayt vet ir gefinen in "forverts" beyde oysleygn -- dem frierdikn un dem nayem. es iz oykh farshtendlekh, az in onheyb veln, varshayndlekh, zayn a sakh mer toesim vi biz aher. ober di shraybers un di zetsers veln zikh bamien vi amshnelstn tsugevoynen tsum nayem, eynhaytlekhn yidishn oysleyg. Der doziker anons iz aleyn geshribn gevorn mitn eynhaytlekhn yivo-oysleyg. A bekovedikn yasher-koyekh der "forverts"-redaktsye! The Yiddish Forward, in a statement printed on November 14th, stated the final intention of its editors to go over to the standard YIVO orthography. This will be done in stages, says the announcement, until all prescriptions of the YIVO system are instituted--goodbye shtumer alef, hello khirik-yud and fey mit a shtrikhl. Congratulations to the Forverts editors on joining the rest of the Yiddish literary world! Sholem Berger New York 7)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 20:30:34 EST From: paullaure@juno.com (Paul D Glasser) Subject: "Geshikhte fun der yidisher shprakh" I believe that I wrote this to Mendele once already, but here it is again: The translation of the first two volumes of Max Weinreich's "Geshikhte fun der yidisher shprakh" is out of print and basically unavailable, as far as I know. I am now engaged (at YIVO) on the translation of the second two volumes, and they should be ready for publication in the next few months. In addition, YIVO hopes to reissue the first two volumes at the same time. So hold on a little longer and you should be able to get a complete translation. (If your Yiddish is limited, Weinreich's "Geshikhte" is probably not a very practical way of improving it - it's very technical.) Paul (Hershl) Glasser 8)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 07:50:28 -0500 (EST) From: Dembart@aol.com Subject: A Yiddish radio jingle There used to be a men's clothing store on the Lower East Side of Manhattan called Joe & Paul, and they advertised on the Yiddish radio (WEVD, I assume) with a catchy jingle that, to the best of my father's recollection, went something like: Joe & Paul Iz a fargenign. Joe & Paul, Men ken a bargain krign. A coat, a suit, a gabardine, Brengt arayn dem tayerem zun (pronounced zin, to rhyme with gabarbine). Does anybody know whether those were the actual words? Was there any more to this ditty? And does anybody know or remember any other Yiddish radio commercials? Lee Dembart 9)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 10:46:38 -0400 From: ari@ivritype.com (Ari Davidow) Subject: about KlezKamp Prodded by the imminentness of this year's KlezKamp, hoping to be useful before this year's registration is closed, there is now an article about my experiences at last year's camp at the source of many fun klez things on the web--my klezmer shack: http://www.well.com/user/ari/klez/ Or, you can go right to the article by exploring http://www.well.com/user/ari/klez/articles/klezkamp96/kk96.html Ari Davidow ______________________________________________________ End of Mendele Vol. 07.104 Address for the postings to Mendele: mendele@lists.yale.edu Address for the list commands: listproc@lists.yale.edu Mendele on the Web: http://mendele.commons.yale.edu http://sunsite.unc.edu/yiddish/mendele.html