Mendele: Yiddish literature and language ______________________________________________________ Contents of Vol. 07.177 April 5, 1998 1) Openers (Daniella HarPaz) 2) openers (Wolf Krakowski) 3) af/oyf & shvel (Mikhoyel Basherives) 4) oyf, khokhlish, etc. (Mikhl Herzog) 5) OYF/AF, khokholish (Shaya Mitelman) 6) Afn shvel/prounciation of 'oyf' (Kalman Weiser) 7) manse, ptsha, khokholish, kurve, adar, etc. (Bob Rothstein) 8) khokhol (Sam Kweskin) 9) Leo Rosten (Al Grand) 1)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 22:21:24 EST From: HarPaz2 Subject: Openers Harvey Spiro's "Ikh makh mit di hent" reminded me of my grandfather's: "Vos makhstu?" "Ikh makh mit di lipn." Daniella HarPaz 2)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 12:00:34 -0500 From: "Kame'a Media" Subject: openers In Toronto's Kensington Market, I once heard a man ask : ? A cheerful shopkeeper replied: ("Money out of crap"). Wolf Krakowski 3)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 07:49:18 -0800 From: Mikhoyel Basherives Subject: af/oyf & shvel Marjorie Schonhaut Hirshan asks about pronouncing the written prepositon OYF as AF. I always heard that the 'OYF' pronunciation was an artificial school creation belonging to no dialect (unless it is a verbal particle as in 'OYFshteyn' which my family pronounced 'UFshteyn') & that the same instructors teaching 'OYF' would then in natural speech pronounce it as AF, OUF or whatever according to their native dialect. Maybe I heard wrong... As for "shvel" (threshhold) it can be either male or female in gender. As a teenager I taped my great grandmother who was from a shtetl near Bobruysk, Belarus & born in 1886. She very clearly sings "Volt mayn mame EYFN shvel nit geshtanen..." ('if my mother were not standing on the threshhold'). Not only is 'shvel' masculine in her dialect but the preposition OYF is pronounced as both AF as well as EYF depending on what words surround it, but never ever as OYF. Mikhoyel Basherives 4)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 12:41:56 -0500 From: "Mikhl Herzog" Subject: 1. oyf, 2. khokhlish, 3. Ludmir, 4. nasalized vowels, etc. 1. _oyf/af/of/uf/if_ --all spelled "aleph-vov-yud-fey" In the "real world", VERY few native speakers say _oyf_, a spelling pronunciation promoted largely by the Yiddish schools. The sequence "aleph-vov-yud-fey" actually covers lexical items with two quite different functions: a) The preposition, as in Standard Yiddish and Northeastern Yiddish _afn tish_, _af der vant_ . This has the regional variant _of_ (generally in Poland and the Ukraine), and _ouf_ (as I recall, in the Carpathian area, more or less). b) The verb complement, as in Standard Yiddish and Northeastern Yiddish _shtey uf_, with regional variants _shtey if_ in neighboring Volhynia, _shtay/shtey of_ (in Poland and much of the Ukraine), and _ouf_ , again in the Carpathian area. In other words, Standard and Northeastern Yiddish distinguish _af_ and _uf_; Volhynia distinguishes _af_ from _if_; Poland and much of the Ukraine have _of_ for both; the Carpathian area has _ouf_ for both. Poof!!! No _OYF_!!! (Except, maybe, in a very narrow strip along the Polish-Lithuanian border. 2. _khokhlish/khakhlatske_: apparently designates dialects of both Ukrainian and Belorussian.[If I remember correctly, _khokhol_ is a designation for a Russian soldier. Anybody, please confirm.] 3. Ludmir is in Volhynia, an area in the Northern Ukraine which shares features of both Northeastern and Southeastern Yiddish. Thus _breyt mit piter_ (not _breyt mit puter_ or _broyt mit piter_). 4. Nasalization is not phonemic in Yiddish. Nasalized vowels are restricted to the (primarily western part of the) Polish area: _vo~s@s_ 'mustaches' as opposed to _vonses/vontses_. 5. _mir/mikh_, _dir/dikh_, _ir/zi_ are generally NOT distinguished in most of the Northeastern Yiddish area (Litvish). One or the other, usually the historical dative form _mir/dir/ir_, generally serves both dative and accusative functions: Thus __ikh gib dos ir_/_ikh hob ir lib_. (CF. universal dat/accus masculine _im_) A similar merger characterizes the articles, as well. Thus, contrary to the universal Yiddish dat/accus masc. _dem_ which favors the historical dative, we find a merger in favor of the feminine accusative _di_: _tsu di mame_/_ikh hob lib di mame_. Some unexpected mergers in favor of the feminine dative _der_ occur sporadically. Mikhl Herzog 5)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 22:12:07 -0500 From: Serge Mitelman Subject: OYF/AF, khokholish. OLEF. OYF/AF Git a kik vzoy reb Motale Czernevitzer ot bashrabt deym inyen (mit zan Bukoviner arusreyd): Faran an alte shrab-mesoyre, vus mir hobn zi beyerishe fyn der royvargshprakh (daychish), az say di prepozitsiye (oyf, a shteyger: oyf deym, oyfn), say deym konverb (oyfnemen, nem oyf) shrabt men alts eyns: oyf. Yn der emesn yz dus a bisl farfirerish. Dys geredte idish - az ir vilt: dys emese idish - diferentsirt zeyer klyur: 1) di prepozitsiye vert yn mizrekh -idish (Estland, Letland, Kovner Lite, Raysn, Ukraine yn Basarabye) arousgeret AF (afn tish). Ynem klasishn sovetishn idish leygt men es afile ous: af, afn tish; ynem a bisl gebitenem ousleyg fynem zhurnal "Sovetish heymland" - af, afn tish. Yn di tsvontsiker yn drasiker yurn fleygn oykh a h ipshe tsul nisht-sovetishe shrabers (Eliezer Shteynbarg, Naftule Gros) ousleygn: af, afn. Hant yz ot der shrabshteyger mekhitsn ratn-farband mer nishtu. Yn tsentral-idish (kongres-poyln, Galitsiye, Marmerosh, Slovakay), vi oykh Bukevine yn Moldeve vert di prepozitsiye arousgeret OF (ofn tish). 2) Mitn konverb (upteylevdiker prefiks, verbaler tsigob) yz azoy: yn der "Lite" (Kovner Lite, Letland, Estland, Raysn) redt men es arous UF (nem uf, ufgenumen), ba litvishe poetn - fyn Tsunzer biz di hantike - gefint men deym gram: guf-oyf, vus dus yz, farshteyt tsekh uf. Yn der Ykraine, Basarabye yn ba eltere bukeviner idn redt men es arous IF (nem if). Di ingere bukeviner redn es ober arous OF (nem of). (Ba a teyl besaraber - oykh of, - S.M.) Ynem traditsioneler sovetishn ousleyg shrabt men: heyb uf, ufheybm, shtey uf, ufshteyn. Yn "Sovetish heymland" (alklpunem yn di yurn 1961-1989): uf, nem uf, ufnemen. Der shrabshteyger uf dekt beyde arousredn: uf, if. Pinkt vi der shrabshteyger kum dekt beyde arousredn: kum, kim. Yn tsentral-idish - kongres-poyln yn di greste teyl Galitsiye - vert der konverb arousgeret OF. Yn di Karpatn-berg -OUF, vus dus yz yo meramez ofn shrabshteyger oyf. Shtelt tsekh di kashe: oyb ale geboyrene idish-reders redn di prepozitsiye arous AF oder OF yn deym konverb UF, IF, OF, OUF, far vus zhe shrabt men zey ale oyf? Tsi meynt es, az der arousred auf yz a graz? Neyn, nisht ken graz, ober natirlekh idish oykh nisht. Geboyrene idish-reders, vus zey hobn dus lushn angezapt mit der mames milkh, veln es azoy nisht arousbreyngen. Yo, mir veysn, mir veysn - yn di idishe shuln yn Amerike yn afile yn farmilkhumedikn Poyln (ober nisht yn Ratn-farband, yn oykh nisht yn di shuln fyn der kultur-lige yn Basarabye beshate) hot men gelernt oyf, pinkt vi zey hobn di shtime yid ynem feminin-sufiks -in tsim badoyern, take arousgeredt: lererin, shvegerin. A a v (Mordkhe Schaechter, "OYF? AF?" Yingvald, Nymer 1, Baylage tsi "Sovetish heymland" Nymer 10, Moskve, Oktyabr, 1990, ibergedrikt fynem nyu-yorker kvartalnik "AFN SHVEL"). BEYS. Khokholish ( khokhlatske) eyst take ukrainish (fynem vort "chub", "chubrine"). S'yz ober risish - eyst es khokhlyatskiy, khokhlatskiy (ukrainish), khokhol (ukrainer). Shaya Mitelman. 6)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 15:40:18 -0500 (EST) From: Kalman Weiser Subject: Afn shvel/prounciation of 'oyf' In response to a recent query about the title of the journal "Afn shvel" and the pronunciation of 'oyf': Dr. Mordkhe Schaechter of the League for Yiddish and current editor of "Afn shvel" once explained to me that the journal was founded by Litvakes, in whose dialect the gender system is far more complicated than in Standard Yiddish (and the other dialects, I believe). Briefly, in litvish, "afn shvel" is correct for the feminine noun "shvel" following this preposition. An explanation of the North Eastern Yiddish gender system can be found in Meyer Wolf's "Yiddish Case and Gender Variation" in Marvin I. Herzog et al, eds., The Field of Yiddish. vol. 3. The Hague: Mouton & Co., 1969. The matter of 'oyf' is somewhat of a polemical one. Its spelling is inherited from earlier periods in the language's development despite the pronunciation 'oyf' not being found in any European dialect (as far as I know) of modern Yiddish. The spelling pronunciation 'oyf'- instead of 'af,' 'uf,' etc. - according to region seems to have arisen with the spread of 'literarish yidish' and the notion that to speak properly is to speak according to the printed word (shriftbild). Linguists and pedagogues in Poland, the USSR, and the USA denounced in the '20s and '30s this phenomenon. A brief discussion regarding the spelling pronunciations "koym," "bloy," and "groy," as well as of the feminine suffix "-in" can be found in Schaechter's "Laytish Mame-loshn." New York: League for Yiddish, 1986, p. 303. Similarly, Max Weinreich wrote in 1930 [capitals indicate Latin letters in the original], "Es iz nito keyn eyn gegent vu di prepozitsye zol klingen OYF. Es bagegnen zikh shoyn ober yo faln, vu di shraybung iz mashpie oyf der oysshprakh: fun gute shiler, oder baym khorgezang, hert men, vos vayter ofter, di kmoy 'literarishe,' ameratsishe form: OYFN hoykhn barg, OYFN grinem barg, aa'v. Me muz makhn a sof tsu der doziker shprakh-farderbenish durkh oysleyg, in der tsayt vos keyn shum oysshprakh-motivn barekhtikn nisht di oyf-shraybung." (Max Vaynraykh. "Proyekt fun an eynheytlekhn yidishn oysleyg," in Der eynheytlekher yidisher oysleyg. Materialn un proyektn tsu der ortografisher konferents fun yivo. Ershte zamlung. Vilne: YIVO, 1930, p.39). The Soviets were able to avoid this problem by introducing a phonetic spelling of 'oyf' (both as a proposition and verbal prefix). All this is not meant to delegitimate the pronunciation OYF today after being so widely heard for years in Yiddish secular schools in America and whereever else 'literary Yiddish' was cultivated. It is merely meant to provide an historical perspective. Kalman Weiser New York 7)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 23:21:04 -0500 (EST) From: ROBERT A ROTHSTEIN Subject: manse, ptsha, khokholish, kurve, adar, etc. [manse] By way of confirmation of Shaya Mitelman's comments on the borrowing of Yiddish _manse_ (as _mansa_) into Russian underworld argot (7.157), a relatively recent dictionary (_Slovar' tiuremno- lagerno-blatnogo zhargona_, comp. D. S. Baldaev, V. K. Belko and I. M. Isupov, Moscow, 1992) has the following entries: mansy -- obman, lozh 'deception, untruth' kidat'/raskidyvat' mansy -- lgat', obmanyvat' 'to lie, to deceive' mansy-shmansy -- obman po sgovoru 'deception by pre- arrangement, plot'. [ptsha] Stanley Werbow (7.159) cites the form _kotcheninnye_ used by his wife's Hungarian-born grandparents to designate what other Yiddish speakers call _ptsha_. My Hungarian-Russian dictionary lists the word _kocsonya_, which it glosses as _studen', _zalivnoe_, _kholodets_, i.e., _ptsha_. [yidish vi a sod] Miki Safadi asks about Yiddish used as a secret language for military or political purposes [7.159]. While my example doesn't exactly fall into that category, I recall seeing a photograph of sign on a store on the Lower East Side in New York that said "closed" in English and "ofn" in Yiddish. [smerkotch, shvinyah] Mel Poretz recalls two terms of abuse, which he spells "smerkotch" and "shvinyah" (7.164). Polish _smarkacz_ is a common irreverent way of referring to a young person, something between 'whippersnapper' and 'snot-nosed kid', the latter being closer to its literal source in _smarkac'_ 'blow one's nose'. Ukrainian has essentially the same word but stressed on the final syllable rather than on the first, as in Polish. Friend Poretz assumes that "shvinyah" is from Russian _svin'ia_; phonetically it's more like Polish _s'winia_ 'pig; swine'. [Adar] Two postings referring to Yiddish names of months (Aridoso Parshandoso in 7.164 and David Herskovic in 7.170) are good illustrations of multilingual play in Yiddish proverbs. AP's reference to the word _oder_, which can refer to the month called Adar in English but can also mean 'or; either' recalls the proverb that plays on that fact as well as the existence of a second month of _oder_ in leap years: Deroyf zaynen bay yidn do tsey odern -- oder yo oder neyn. (That's why Jews have two Adars: either yes or no.) DH cites a version of a proverb that Bernstein gives as Shvat nye brat, uder nye bruder. (Shebat is not a brother, Adar is not a brother.) _nye_ is Polish _nie_ 'not' and _brat_ is Polish for 'brother'. (DH's variant, "Shvat tonye brat..." represents the more standard "X to nie Y.") The Yiddish proverb may also be playing on the Polish proverbial expression _(a)ni swat, (a)ni brat_, literally, 'neither a member of my wedding party nor my brother,' i.e., 'nobody close to me'. (Outside of that expression the word _swat_ now only means 'marriage broker'.) Question to dialectologists: In what Yiddish dialect(s) does the rhyme in the proverb work, i.e., where is the name of the month pronounced [uder], not [oder], while the word for brother is pronounced [bruder], not [brider]? [khokholish] Fred Sherman asks about a language called "khokholish" (7.173). The term presumably refers to Ukrainian (or Rusyn). Russians used the term _khokhol_ 'tuft of hair' as a less than respectful term for Ukrainians, some of whom shaved their heads except for a single tuft of hair. (Ukrainians responded by applying the term _katsap_ 'goat' to Russians, supposedly refer- ring to the full beards worn by Russian Orthodox priests.) When I was first studying Russian in the late 1950s, my late uncle, who grew up in Hungary, told me that he could understand some Russian because in the area in the Carpathians (prewar Carpatho- Russia) where he was born, the local peasants spoke _po-khokhlovski_. [kurve] The Polish etymologist Franciszek Sl/awski (in his _Sl/ownik etymologiczny je,zyka polskiego_) cites as the earliest attestations of the Slavic word 1415 in Polish and 14th century in Czech. He agrees with Max Vasmer in postulating a Proto- Slavic form *kury, genitive *kurUve (second vowel a so-called "jer" or reduced vowel) derived from the word for rooster and meaning 'hen'. This would be parallel to the forms *svekry, *svekrIve (I = front jer) 'mother-in-law' from *svekrU 'father- in-law. Vasmer points to a semantic parallel in French _cocotte_ 'hen' and 'prostitute' from _coq_ 'rooster' and well as _poule_ 'chicken' and 'prostitute'. Both linguists doubt that the Slavic word comes from Germanic, and Sl/awski quotes the opinion of the Czech linguist Machek that the borrowing went in the opposite direction. Bob Rothstein 8)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:59:33 EST From: ESSAIKAY Subject: khokhol Fred Sherman asks about "khokhol", and i remember my mother and grandmother using it in no term of endearment. Rather, it seemed to relate to "poyer," or peasant. It's connotations were also "dumb ox" and similar to "klotz" (although this is a chunk of wood, it referred to a stupid individual); it was worse than "grobber yung", Frankly, I haven't found it in my Russian dictionary, but if memory serves me I believe "khokhol" refers to a farming community. I won't take any bets, because I want my first foray into Mendele to be a pleasant one. I think there's a simple answer to Rhonda B. Friedman's question about "gutahr". Try the English "catarrh" (cold, cough). Sam Kweskin 9)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:29:33 EST From: Savoyid Subject: Leo Rosten When a staff writer for a newspaper or a TV anchorperson uses Rosten as a source of information that's one thing - but when a scholar and Yiddish enthusiast on Mendele does the same thing ["I go back to my Rosten and use him as a...source of information and quotes..." - Peter Gutmann, Vol 07.173 ] I begin to feel like the wife in the 1940 movie _Gaslight_ whose husband kept driving her increasingly insane by constantly telling her that what she sees with her own eyes is entirely the opposite case. What I see with my own eyes throughout _The Joys of Yiddish_ are such abominations as _boarderkeh_, _opstairsikeh_, _shmegegge_, _shnook_, _cockamamy_, _shmuck_, _shnook_ which Rosten says "are already part of everyday English, are rapidly becoming part of English, or should be part of our noble language." The latter assertion is what particularly makes me gag. But don't get me wrong - for I must hasten to say that I LOVE Leo Rosten's _The Education of H*Y*M*A*N K*A*P*L*A*N_. It's a delightful caper. But I'm truly puzzled by Yiddish devotees who heap honors upon Rosten for _Joys_. Al Grand ______________________________________________________ End of Mendele Vol. 07.177 Address for the postings to Mendele: mendele@lists.yale.edu Address for the list commands: listproc@lists.yale.edu Mendele on the Web: http://mendele.commons.yale.edu http://sunsite.unc.edu/yiddish/mendele.html