Mendele: Yiddish literature and language ______________________________________________________ Contents of Vol. 09.034 October 23, 1999 1) I think he's wrong! (Mikhl Herzog) 2) "foygl khale" (Gilad J. Gevaryahu) 3) Froebel Schools (Kalman Weiser) 4) freblkursen or frebelisten (Naomi Fatouros) 5) frebl un frebelistn (Sylvia Schildt) 6) freblshul (Feigl I Glaser) 7) Frebel & Frebelistn (Michael Heiser) 8) frebelistn (Susanne Klingenstein) 9) frebl kursn, freblistn (Przemek Piekarski) 1)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 20:53:56 -0400 (EDT) From: "Mikhl Herzog" Subject: I think he's wrong! Writing under the guise of Hillel Halkin (The New Republic, October 18, 1999, p. 18), Philologus decides that Katherine Hellerstein is mistaken in rendering Kadya Molodowsky's use of Yiddish _man_ as English 'husband' . He prefers English 'man'. (See review of Katherine Hellerstein, _Paper Bridges: Selected Poems of Kadya Molodowsky_). Native English speakers of Yiddish in America may consider this a reasonable contention and, indeed, Harkavy, possibly in deference to them, offers both 'man' and 'husband' as glosses for Yiddish _man_. (The plural _mener_ 'men' is distinguished from _manen_ 'husbands'.) HOWEVER, in interviewing dozens of native Yiddish speakers in Europe, Israel, and America, and reviewing the interviews of several hundred others, I have found that, except in America, Yiddish _man_ is inevitably 'husband', and English _man_ is rendered by Yiddish _mentsh_. Uriel Weinreich's dictionary preserves this distinction, marking _man_ as 'man' as of doubtful admissability. The records of the _Language and Culture Atlas of Ashkenazic Jewry_ gathers relevant data in two contexts: 1) The English expression 'the man with two women' is inevitably rendered as Yiddish _der mentsh mit tsvey froyen_ (or _tsvay frouen_); 2) The English 'the man with the wine' is rendered _der mentsh mitn vayn_ (_mitn vaan_). Only in America, do we get _der man mitn vayn/vaan_. So, I'd vote for Katherine. What about you? Mikhl Herzog PS: As an interesting aside, the expression _dos mentsh_ refers to a woman. 2)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 09:30:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Gevaryahu@aol.com Subject: "foygl khale" A. Krishtalka says [Mendele Vol 09.032] :<> I read somewhere that "foygl khale" is not named after any bird but rather after the script shape of the letter 'fey'. Does anyone know if this history is correct? Gilad J. Gevaryahu 3)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 01:21:24 -0400 (EDT) From: "K Weiser" Subject: Froebel Schools Froeblism refers to the pedagogic system of German educator Friedrich Froebel (1782-1852), founder of the kindergarten. This system, which emphasized self-activity and creativity in child education, introduced a series of toys devised to stimulate learning through well-directed play accompanied by songs and music. The toys consisted of six sets arranged in ascending complexity, beginning with colored balls and progressing to blocks, squares, and cubes. Their use was intended to provide pre-school children with practice in creating useful, artistic, and geometric constructions, as well with lessons in numbers. "Frebl-shuln" were popular among both Hebraist and Yiddishist elements in Poland early in the twenties century, especially once the schools became a mass phenomenon during WWI. Kalman Weiser New York 4)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 02:02:36 -0400 (EDT) From: NFatouros@aol.com Subject: freblkursen or frebelisten I know very little Yiddish and only a little more German, so I have to struggle in order to understand Mendele's translitated messages. I am hesitant to respond to Ms. Kunitz's of October 6, 1999, but I can't resist the impulse to blurt out that that I suspect strongly that the Vilna Yiddish school activities were based on the educational philosopy of Friedrich Froebel (1782-1852). He coined the word "kindergarten" and his ideas about childhood and the way children learn resembled those of the later-born Maria Montessori. I shall be interested to learn whether others in the Mendele group interpret "freblkursen" or "Frebelisten" in the same way as I did. Naomi Fatouros 5)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 12:59:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Sylvia Schildt Subject: frebl un frebelistn vegn frage fun frebl un frebelistn iz a gringer entfer. dos hot tzu ton mitn pedagog Froebel (ikh meyn az er iz geven der grinder fun di ershte kindergertner) ... undzere lerer seminar lerers hobn im oft dermont (kazhdan, khaim bez, o"h"). mit hartzike grusn, about the question of Froebel and the Froebelists, the answer is easy. it has to do with the pedagogue Froebel (I think he was the founder of the first kindergardens) ... our teachers in Lerer Seminar often mentioned him (Kazdan, Ch. Bass). warmest greetings. sylvia schildt baltimore, maryland 6)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 13:01:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Feigl I Glaser Subject: FREBLSHUL, FREBLISTIN, DYALEKTN IN YIDISH Vi an entfer oyf der onfrage fun frayndin Kuznits: kindergortn, kinderheym, freblshul oder frebluvke zaynen sinonimen far shuln far yunge forshul kinder. Freblistins oder freblistkes zaynen di dertsier/in in freblshuln. Ikh nem on az freblkursn in Vilne zaynen geven kursn tsutsugreytn lerer/kes tsu arbetn in di freblshuln. Vi an entfer tsu Ben Fogel: Yo, in tsentral poyln, lodzer umgegnt arayngerekhnt, hot men gezogt": "mit der piter arup (nisht "mit der puter arop"), "shayn vi di livune" (nisht "sheyn vi di levone"), "kim, maan shayn zindele" (nisht "kum mayn sheyn zundele". Men ken onnemen az farn groysn khurbn (velt milkhome ll) zaynen di finf Yidishe hoypt-dialektn geven: TSENTRAL-POYLISHER Yidish (geredt tsvishn der 1939 grenets mit daytshland un dem di taykhn Vaysl un San; TSOFNDIKER Yiddish (oykh bakant vi LITVISHER Yidish), geredt in Lite, Letland, Vaysrusland un dem farmilkhomedikn tsofn-Poyln); DOREMDIKER Yiddish (oykh bakant vi Galitsyaner Yidish), genutst in Ukraine, mizrekh Galitsye, Rumenye un dem far-milkhomedikn dorem Poyln (Kroke, Lemberg, Stanislav, a"a); MIZREKH-YIDISH (banutst in Kiev, Minsk a"a); MAYREV-YIDISH (geredst oyf mayrev fun der far-milkhomediker Poylish-Daytsher grenets - Keln, Prag, Pariz, London aaz"v). Farshteyt zikh, az es zaynen oykh geven sub-dyalektn. Klal-Yidish, vos mir hobn zikh fareynikt tsu nutsn in di Fareynikte Shtatn un andere lender, iz geven a bashafung tsu helfn dem gemish fun imigrantn mit farsheydene dyalektn. Agev, KLAL-Yidish hot lekhatkhile gedarft dinen keday Yidishe mener, froyen un kinder fun farsheydene erter un dialektn zoln shraybn eynhaytlekh. Nito aza zakh vi a mer literarisher oder vayniker literarisher dyalekt! BOREKH SHEFNER, a barimter felyetonist un eyner fun di beste mitarbeter in forverts, hot gehaltn zeyer literarishe un inhaltsraykhe referatn in TSENTRAL POYLISHN YIDISH. Ikh veys nit vos ir, oder andere meynen do mit "etymological 'u'". S'maynt a farglaykh, an opshtam, oder epes andersh? Feigl I Glaser 7)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 09:11:21 -0400 (EDT) From: "Mike Heiser, LGA Finance" Subject: Frebel & Frebelistn In Mendele Vol 09.032 Cecile Kuznitz asks about the terms Frebel and Frebelistn with reference to Vilna Yiddish. In Henri Minczeles book 'Vilna, Wilno, Vilnius; la Jerusalem de Lituanie' (Paris, Editions La Decouverte, 1993) (chapter 12 p 253 ) reference is made to kindergarten teachers attending seminars run by Friedrich Froebel, a famous German teacher, who basing himself on the ideas of Pestalozzi, had created kindergartens based on development though exercises, games and songs in the open air. Minczeles gives as a reference Lucy Dawidowicz's book From That Place and Time - A Memoir 1938-1947 (New York, Norton, 1989) but I have not read this. A grus tsu ale mendelistn biklal, un Anshl Mihaly un Yitzhak Luden bifrat. Michael Heiser 8)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 18:21:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Susanne Klingenstein Subject: frebelistn In response to Cecile Kuznitz's query about "frebl" and "frebelistn" (words occurring in the context of Vilna schools in the 1920s), I think it is a safe bet to assume that these words pertain to followers of the liberal Swiss educator Froebel who specialized in early childhood education. Susanne Klingenstein MIT 9)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 17:29:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Przemyslaw Piekarski Subject: frebl kursn, freblistn Cecile Kuznitz hot gefregt vegn di frebl kursn un freblistn. Ikh hob gefregt selbiker ba main shver. Er zogt zey zaynen geven kinderlekh finf - zeks yorn alt lernen sikh dem alef beiz in a shul. (wi in a kindergarten) Fun Dr. Frebl. Grus fun Kroke Zajt gezund Przemek Piekarski ______________________________________________________ End of Mendele Vol. 09.034 Address for the postings to Mendele: mendele@lists.yale.edu Address for the list commands: listproc@lists.yale.edu Mendele on the Web: http://mendele.commons.yale.edu http://metalab.unc.edu/yiddish/mendele.html