Mendele: Yiddish literature and language ______________________________________________________ Contents of Vol. 10.018 June 15, 2000 1) Spelling and neshome (Matt Fischer) 2) Spelling and neshome (Bob Poe) 3) Sholem Aleichem's Funeral (Elliot Horne) 4) Yiddish hot hinter zikh etlekhe medines (Leybl Botwinik) 5) Weather Forecast (Leybl Botwinik) 6) Loyvitsh (Miriam Hoffman) 7) komerne (Yankev Berger) 8) komerne (wlodek goldkorn ) 9) 2nd Avenue Theater? (Gilbert Levin) 1)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 16:52:47 -0400 (EDT) From: "Matt Fisher" Subject: Spelling and neshome [regarding Marjorie Hirshan's post, 10.010] Ellen Prince (10.015) writes: If the publisher is YIVO, then I guess one would expect the spelling to be changed; if it isn't, then it would just be chutzpah (aka khutspe), in my opinion. Khutspe we expect from YIVO. But from someone else! A khutspe that they should be so khutspedik! ;-) My relatively uninformed impression is that the spelling in different works by the same Yiddish author can vary widely, even if they were written and published at about the same time. So I'd have to ask, to what extent was the spelling in early editions determined by the editor or publisher, rather than the author? Is the manuscript or first edition always the best text? Yes, variant spellings and word choices lend flavor to a text, but they can also make for rough reading. Perhaps the choice of spellings for a new edition of a classic work should depend in part on the current editor's judgement about what will best serve the needs and expectations of the target audience. There may even be cases where the author intended to achieve or even create a standard usage, where it would be a khutspe not to help fulfill that intention by exercising a little bit of editorial judgement. Matt Fisher 2)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 18:13:05 -0400 (EDT) From: poe@ekbos.com (Bob Poe) To: mendele@lists.yale.edu Subject: Spelling and neshome The Chaucer analogy is somewhat misleading, as Ellen Prince has pointed out (10.015), since Chaucer wrote in Middle English, which is not readily understandable to modern readers; it requires translation, not merely respelling. A better example (also provided by Marjorie Hirshan) would be Shakespeare, who wrote Modern English. Although many features of modern English spelling preserve aspects of Middle English pronunciation that have long disappeared or evolved, as Geoffrey Nathan has pointed out, there has been a lot of change in spelling conventions since Shakespeare's time. (Perhaps the "English spelling system was frozen about three hundred years ago", as he says, but Shakespeare was writing *four* hundred years ago, and the Great Vowel Shift was old news at that time, so there is no real causative connection there. I think there has been a continuous evolution, but it has slowed down over the centuries under the influence of universal education and widespread literacy.) Facsimile editions of Shakespeare's folio and quartos are available and are of interest, not only to scholars, but to those readers who relish the flavor of the original editions. The spelling is *often* different from the modern standard and often inconsistent. After all, Shakespeare spelled his own name in several different ways in the surviving signatures (Shakspere, Shaxper, etc.). The punctuation and capitalization conventions are different also, as is the typography (use of the long "s", for instance). These can be fascinating to a certain kind of reader, but of course most editions of Shakespeare conform to modern conventions in order to accommodate a general readership. (There have been editions that went even further and modernized the diction and references, in order to accommodate an even more general readership, but this practice has usually been deprecated.) This may be a reasonable guide for Yiddish. In most cases, what is needed is standard orthography. However, there may be sufficient interest in certain classic works to have them published in editions that preserve more of their original flavor. But is there a special problem with Yiddish, in that there is no universally accepted standard? Ellen Prince takes a stand against universally YIVO-izing the spelling. She seems to feel that Yiddish spelling has often been a form of personal expression on the part of the writer. I can't comment on that, but I don't agree with her generalization that "in other speech communities it is usually the (eminent) writers that *become the model* for spelling!" Shakespeare and Milton and Shaw may have influenced English literary style and diction, but I think that Noah Webster (for instance) has had more effect on American spelling than any of our writers. I suppose I'm arguing for standards, but with flexibility and with significant exceptions. Bob Poe 3)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 14:48:14 -0400 (EDT) From: FansDad@aol.com Subject: Sholem Aleichem's Grave Sholem Aleichem is buried in Mt. Carmel Cemetary in Ridgewood, Queens, New York. The insciption on the stone is in Yiddish. Elliot Horne Paradise Valley, AZ 4)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 04:18:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Leybl Botwinik Subject: Yiddish hot hinter zikh etlekhe medines... [regarding Eliahu Toker's post (10.016): koydem kol hof ikh, az fraynt tokern hot men batsolt far der iberzetsung. tsveytsn, volt geven sheyn dos tsu zen oyf mendele in der yidisher iberzetsung (mit dem english/original, farshteyt zikh). derfar ober, tut mir leyd vos fraynt toker dertseylt unds dem troyerikn fakt ven s'iz tsu shpet epes tsu ton... es ken zayn, az mir voltn gekent virkn durkh ofitsyele kanaln, az yidish zol ye onerkent vern far der oysgabe. etlekhe goyrmim hobn gekent virkn derbay: 1) mit a tsol yorn tsurik (1990? - ikh gedenk punkt its nit di date) iz yidish gevorn onerkent durkh dem UNESCO vi a vikhtike shprakh; 2) in 1996 (dakht zikh) iz yidish ofitsyel onerkent gevorn durkh dem eyropeishn parliament vi an eyropeeisher shprakh; 3) in 1996 zaynen yidish un Ladino onerkent gevorn funem yisroyldikn kenset vi natsyonale shprakhn fun yidishn folk un fun medines yisroyl. es ken zayn, az ven der hanover byuro vos hot zikh farnumen mit dem inyen volt bakumen ofitsyele briv fun di organen (EU, kneset,UNESCO), oder kopyes fun di protokoln tsi nayes barikhtn, volt geholfn. a tsveytn mol, hof ikh, veln mir kliger zayn... iker shokhakhti, yidish iz shoyn onerkent, zint di 1920er, vi eyne fun di ofitsyele (tsi natsyonale) shprakhn fun birobidzhan... ============ Firstly, I hope that Mr. Toker was compensated for his translation. Secondly, it would be nice to see it on mendele in its Yiddish translation (with the English/Original, of course). However, it pains me that Mr. Toker tells us this sad fact when it's too late to do something... It may be, that we could have worked through official channels, that Yiddish could have been recognized for this publication. Several factors may have influenced this: 1) several years ago (1990? - I don't remember the exact date) Yiddish was recognized by the UNESCO as an important language; 2) in 1996 (I believe) Yiddish was officially recognized by the European Parliament as a European language; 3) in 1996, both Yiddish and Ladino were recognized by the Israeli Parliament as National languages of the Jewish People and the State of Israel. It may be, that if the Hanover office which handled this issue had received official letters from these organizations (EU, kneset,UNESCO), or copies of the protocols or news reports, this would have helped. Next time, I hope, we'll be smarter. Oh, I forgot the most important, that Yiddish has already been recognized since the 1920's as one of the Official (or National) languages of Birobidzhan... leybl botwinik yisroyl 5)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 04:34:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Leybl Botwinik Subject: Weather Forecast = veter-prognoz a dank tsu Yankev Lewis un Elye Palevsky far zeyer hilf. Dovid Braun un Naomi Cohen hobn ober frier geentfert mit "veter-prognoz" far "Weather Forecast". Naomi hot oykh ongegebn "veter-novi" far "Forecaster". di tikunim darfn di teg arayngeyn oyfn vebplats. "veter oyskuk" un "barikht" klingen far mir "Report" - dos heyst, vi es zet oys itst, un nit di 'nevue' oyf shpeter. es ken zayn, az "der yid" halt zikh op fun 'nevues' vayl aalts iz bemeyle in gots hent, un vos veysn mir, poshete mentshelekh vos vet shpeter/morgn zayn... Thanks to Yankev, Elye, Naomi and Dovid. "Der Yid" is using present-tense terms "Barikht = Report" and "Oyskuk = View/Outlook". "Outlook" is as close as they may get to "telling the future", since that's God's territory... Leybl Botwinik 6)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 08:34:52 -0400 (EDT) From: "Miriam Hoffman" Subject: Loyvitsh May parents who came from Lodz, Poland, used to say: Ikh hob dikh in Loyvitsh. I found out that Loyvitsh was a town not too far from Lodz, with the biggest cemetery at the time of the curse, which meant, drop dead. Miriam Hoffman 7)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 09:05:09 -0400 (EDT) 0From: Jack Berger Subject: komerne A guess regarding khaver Cooperman's request (10.017): A corruption of the Russian: 'khmirneh' meaning dark, cloudy, forbidding. A likely metaphor for whatever 'prison' or point of dentention that his relatives were being taken to. Regards Yankev Berger 8)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 09:05:51 -0400 (EDT) From: "Wlodek Goldkorn" Subject: komerne bernard d. cooperman asks what's komerne. it comes from polish komorne and it's the rent you pay to the owner (every month or week) for your flat. the other way to say it in yiddish is dire geld. wlodek goldkorn firenze, italia 9)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 09:30:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Gilbert Levin Subject: 2nd Avenue Theater? My friend, Josh Fishman suggested I contact you for an opinion about the origin of the expression, "When you are in love the whole world is Jewish." My uninformed guess is in the title of this email. Thanks in advance for any assistance you are able to provide. Gilbert Levin ______________________________________________________ End of Mendele Vol. 10.018 Address for the postings to Mendele: mendele@lists.yale.edu Address for the list commands: listproc@lists.yale.edu Mendele on the Web: http://mendele.commons.yale.edu http://metalab.unc.edu/yiddish/mendele.html