Mendele: Yiddish literature and language
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Contents of Vol. 14.013
October 6, 2004

1) Yiddish Western/Frontier texts (Hershl Hartman)
2) prost un grob (Moyshe-Shaye Steinlauf)
3) prost un grob (Eli Goodman)
4) prost un grob (Fishl Kutner)
5) prost un grob (Abraham Melezin)
6) pareve (Meyer Zaremba)
7) shier nisht (Martin Green)
8) botshvines (Rick Turkel)
9) botshvines (Jack Berger)

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1)----------------------------------------------------
Date: October 4, 2004
From: hershl@earthlink.net
Subject: Re: Yiddish Western/Frontier texts

Re: Warren Hoffman's inquiry, vol 14, no. 11: There are many Yiddish poems
and stories about life in Far West Los Angeles to be found on the pages of
the literary journal "khezhbon," still appearing in L.A. after 75 years, as
well as in many, many other sources.

As to the "Old West," I'd suggest consulting the catalogs at YIVO and NYBC
for the works of Shmuel (Samuel) Daixel (daled-pasekh tsvey yudn-kuf-lamed),
a teacher for many decades in the Secular Yiddish shuln and counselor at
Camp Kinderland. Daixel wrote about his life as adopted son of an Indian
tribe in the Southwest. His students and campers were never entirely
convinced that his stories were true -- although he looked the part facially
and in height, especially when wrapped in an Indian blanket and wearing an
eagle's feather --  but they were fascinated nonetheless.

The only English translation of Daixel's work that I know of (appearing in
"Nine One-Act Plays From the Yiddish," translated by Bessie F. White, 1932,
John W. Luce & Co., Boston) does not deal with the West.

Hershl Hartman

2)----------------------------------------------------
Date: October 6, 2004
From: msteinlauf@earthlink.net
Subject: Re: prost un grob

Prost is not necessarily pejorative. One can say "Er iz a proster nor an
erlikher" meaning he's simple but decent. Grob has no redeeming context.

A grus,
Moyshe-Shaye Steinlauf
Philadelphia

3)----------------------------------------------------
Date: October 6, 2004
From: JEGCC@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: prost un grob

A `grober yung' is a coarse or vulgar young man; `prost' has more of a
connotation of `ordinary,' as in the old joke:

`Seen my toots?'

`Vos far a toots -- a sheyne toots?  A blonde toots?

`Neyn -- a proste toots.'

Eli Goodman

4)----------------------------------------------------
Date: March 6, 2004
From: fishl@derbay.org
Subject: Re: prost un grob

I recall Mom referring to prost meaning uncouth, and grob referring more to
an unlearned person.

Fishl Kutner

5)----------------------------------------------------
Date: October 6, 2004
From: Amelezin@aol.com
Subject: prost un grob

Prost usually referred to one's social standing; grob - to the traits of a
character.

Abraham Melezin

6)----------------------------------------------------
Date: October 6, 2004
From: greenehcuzineh@aol.com
Subject: pareve

Do any of your readers know from where the word, "parev" or "pareve "
derives?

Meyer Zaremba

7)----------------------------------------------------
Date: October 6, 2004
From: marty@aptitude-testing.com
Subject: Re: shier nisht

In response to my query three months ago about "shier nisht", Mendele
correspondents continue to write in to prove that the expression comes from
German roots. The fact is that it would never occured to me that the
expression could have been anything BUT German were it not for the
unexpected  "ayin" in Weinreich's spelling. This is clear if anyone goes
back to my orignial posting. My question remains: why the "ayin"? Is this
not simply a blunder that is inconsistent with the YIVO spelling of other
words like bier (no ayin), tsier (no ayin), kolier (no ayin) etc?

Marty Green

8)----------------------------------------------------
Date: October 6, 2004
From: rturkel@ameritech.net
Subject: Re: botshvines (botvines)

In Mendele 14.012, Hershl Hartman wrote:

     Harkavy's 1928 dictionary refers the searcher for botshvine to botvine,
     where it is translated as (apparently, a collective noun, as no plural
     is indicated) "leaves of beets."

     The more common expression is "mishn kashe mit borshtsh" (lit.,
     confusing buckwheat groats with beet soup -- mixing apples and
     oranges).

Whenever someone made an inappropriate comparison, my mother,
a"h, (NYC born of Polish parents) would always ask, "vos hot kashe tsu
tun mit borsht?"

P.S.  I've never heard anyone actually say "borshtsh" in Yiddish -
that's the Russian spelling (and pronunciation) of the source of the
Yiddish word "borsht."

Just my NIS 0.05/US$ 0.02.  a gut yomtov tsu alemen.

Rick Turkel

9)----------------------------------------------------
Date: October 6, 2004
From: jsberger@optonline.net
Subject: Re: botshvines

All from the Russian, 'botva' meaning 'beetroot leaves.'
'Botvinya' is given as 'cold beetroot soup.'

It would appear that this is slightly different from borshch, which is
properly a 'beet' soup.

I am familiar with the term 'rosl' favored by my great-aunt (I don't know
why). This term seems to come from the Russian as well, and I hazard a guess
that it is from 'ros' meaning 'dew.'

Jack S. Berger

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