Mendele: Yiddish literature and language ______________________________________________________ Contents of Vol. 14.015 October 17 , 2004 1) prost un grob (Gerry Kane) 2) prost un grob (Michael Meckler) 3) prost un grob (Al Grand) 4) pareve (Alan Astro) 5) Shira Gorshman (Cornelia Baulsom-Loewy) 6) Construction with 'ton' (Yakov Blum) 7) forts in rosl (Gerry Kane) 8) James Cagney's Yiddish (Al Grand) 9) Esther Frumkin (Dan Goodridge) Visit Mendele on the Web: http://www.mendele.net 1)---------------------------------------------------- Date: October 12, 2004 From: gerry.kane@sympatico.ca Subject: Re: prost un grob Is gemeyn truly in the middle between prost and grob? An examination of a German dictionary gives its meaning as "vulgar, nasty, mean, dirty." Harkavy gives its meaning "base and mean." Weinreich says, "vokhedik." If you were going to be eydl or gebildet in your discourse would you use gemeyn instead of prost or grob or vokhedik? I would personally opt for the German use of the word in that it isn't class ridden. A very sophisticated, gebildet, well spoken person can be mean and base and not at all vokhedik. To call someone a vokhediker yid has in it the assumption that eydlkeyt only comes about on shabes when one doffs the weekly garb for the shabes costume. Does what one has in his heart change on shabes? Gerry Kane 2)---------------------------------------------------- Date: October 12, 2004 From: meckler.12@osu.edu Subject: Re: prost un grob Just to add to Reb Noyekh's discussion (Mendele 14.014), the word "grob" always had negative social connotations to my grandmother, even in seemingly innocuous usages. What immediately comes to mind is my grandmother's dislike of "grobe lokshn," which referred to noodles that were thick and/or wide. Leaving aside the fact that thick noodles can be a bit chewy, what we all understood from this comment was that homemade or "homemade-style" noodles were inelegant, not refined. Thin noodles were classier than "grobe" noodles. In expressing her preference for thin noodles, my grandmother was marking (or, trying to mark) a social distinction. (She also used "grob" to refer to other uncouth foods, such as tsholnt.) Michael Meckler 3)---------------------------------------------------- Date: October 15, 2004 From: savoyid@optonline.net Subject: Re: prost and grob Noyekh Miller makes a very interesting and nuanced distinction between prost and grob (Volume 14 number 14). Stutchkoff sort of lumps them both together under the entry UMEYDLKEYT (Der Oytser fun der Yidisher Shprakh, page 632, entry # 557.) As nouns he offers such synonyms as shlekht dertsoygener, grober nefesh, grober yung, vilde tskig, and barbar. In his adjective column Stutchkoff lists (among others) taktloz, hart, umgalant, umkultivirt, umtsivilizirt, berish, klotsik, eydl vi in yatke, eydl vi a kneydl, prost vi a balegole, un azoy vayter. While Stutchkoff is all-encompassing and often humorous Miller offers subtle shading and gradations. Al Grand 4)---------------------------------------------------- Date: October 13, 2004 From: aastro@trinity.edu Subject: Re: pareve [In response to Meyer Zaremba's query, Mendele 14.013] Professor Herbert H. Paper once suggested that etymologically pareve may be related to French pareil ("same, similar"; the final L is not pronounced as an L but as a y glide). Other Romance words in Yiddish also occur in the religious sphere: bentshn, tsholnt, orn ("to pray" in Western Yiddish), leyenen (which would include reading from the Torah). In modern French, c'est pareil is commonly used to mean "it doesn't matter which one." Alan Astro 5)---------------------------------------------------- Date: October 13, 2004 From: codab@t-online.de Subject: Shira Gorshman Does anyone know where I can find bibliograhic information on Shira Gorshman (born 1906)? I'd be very grateful for a hint. a sheynem dank, Cornelia Baulsom-Loewy 6)---------------------------------------------------- Date:October 13, 2004 From: yak@umail.ucsb.edu Subject: Construction with 'ton' I was wondering if anyone had information on the following construction: ton + [infinitive] where ton ("do") is used as a helping verb before an infinitive. It does not seem to be very common at all, but I have seen it in a couple different places. One is the song Dona, Dona: bidne kelber tut men bindn, un men shlept zey un men shekht. Itsik Manger uses it twice in a row in "Vashti's Kloglid" in Megile-Lider: kh'hob im nisht gefolgt, kh'hob im nisht gehert, itst tu ikh lign nayn eyln in dr'erd. kh'hob im nisht gefolgt, itst tu ikh batsoln. farnemts mayn geveyn, ir berg un ir toln! Does anyone know about the origin, meaning (as opposed to just using the verb), or acceptability of this construction? A dank, Yakov Blum 7)---------------------------------------------------- Date:October 12, 2004 From: gerry.kane@sympatico.ca Subject: forts in rosl When I first heard the word "rosl" mentioned it fell from blessed grandmother's lips as "er dreyt zikh arum vi a forts in rosl." Does anyone else know of the expression and how does it relate to the meaning of "rosl." Gerry Kane [For earlier discussions, see Mendele 3.010, 3.016, 3.017 and 9.008.] 8)---------------------------------------------------- Date: October 15, 2004 From: savoyid@optonline.net Subject: James Cagney's Yiddish I've often heard that James Cagney spoke Yiddish fluently and I always thought that to be somewhat of an exaggeration. So when I recently acquired two of Cagney's old films on video I was astonished to hear him engage in two brief Yiddish conversations with total ease and rapid-fire fluidity. In fact the rapidity with which he delivered the lines made me want to replay them a dozen or so times so that I could write them down with as much accuracy as possible. I believe I was able to transcribe them with at least 95% accuracy. I would be grateful to hear from anyone who has a more complete or accurate text of what I'm about to reveal. In the 1932 film "Taxi" a man anxious to get to Ellis Island to meet a recent arrival approaches a cab being driven by Cagney. Man (breathlessly): "Ikh muz zikh aylen un geyn arunter tsu Elis Aylend!" Cagney (poking his head out the window): "Shvay, Shvayg! Ikh farshtey! Vilst geyn tsu Elis Aylend. Di vayb iz do??" Man: " Vo den! - (With surprise) Bist a yidisher yung!?" Cagney - " Nu vos den - a sheygets!? Khap zikh arayn." The man quickly enters the taxi. The second film is "The Fighting 69th" [1940] A group of World War 1 recruits are in formation for inspection and Cagney is standing next to a short Jewish soldier who just finished telling the sergeant that his name is Murphy. Sergeant "Did you say your name is Murphy?" Jewish Soldier: "I did your worship; save in your presence." Sergeant: "What were you born?" Soldier: "I was born a boy!" The sergeant walks away in disgust to peals of laughter from the other soldiers. Cagney (turning to the soldier next to him): " Vos veys er! Er veyst fun gornisht!" Soldier: "Vos veyst er - er iz der balebos!" Cagney: "Nisht far mayn gelt!" While this may come across rather trite in print it is refreshingly cool to watch Cagney as the words come trippingly on the tongue in a glatik, varem, heymish yidish! Mit vareme grusn, Al Grand 9)---------------------------------------------------- Date: October 16, 2004 From: dango@bigpond.net.au Subject: Esther Frumkin Could some kind Mendelayer point me towards any material on Esther Frumkin, nee Malke (Mariya Yakovklevna) Lifshits - Bundist, delegate to Czernowitz, member of Yevsektsiya, exiled 1938 to Kazakhstan(?), died about 1943? mit vareme grusn, Dan Goodridge ______________________________________________________ End of Mendele Vol. 14.015 Address for the postings to Mendele: mendele@lists.yale.edu Address for the list commands: listproc@lists.yale.edu