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quite substantial salaries. They're really nice people. They don't hurt anybody. But heaven knows few of them help anybody, either!

Back to Grosset and Dunlap--you've been with it for twenty odd years. You talked about Macmillan buying Grosset stock in the open market. I thought it was owned privately by your combine.

It was to start; but when the mania came for going public and we saw how successful these issues were and publishing stocks were in such demand, it was suggested that Grosset go public too. So we brought out an issue, and it was a great success. The stock went soaring along with all of the other publishing stocks and then of course broke with all of the other publishing stocks when the dawn arose like thunder across the bay. But Macmillan suddenly began buying this public stock on the public market.

We were waiting until they demanded a place on the board of directors, which indeed they were entitled to because of all the stock that they owned, but they never approached us. We knew what they were doing. They knew that we knew it. They were, I think, waiting for us to invite them to participate. Suddenly one of their lawyers told them that they thought that the Government would frown on Macmillan owning this big share in a paperback house. They added that Grosset, besides owning Bantam, had a