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He did after awhile put together a program that he thought met our needs. One of the major things that came out of it was a delegate training manual, that he helped prepare. A steward's manual and a staff training manual that you taught, that could be taught by the staff -- teach the staff to teach the stewards. You taught them from a manual that virtually had the questions and the answers in it -- you've seen that. So we prepared that. That became the basis for our program. We went through many education directors in the process, including one guy who was with the paper workers and is still with Cornell -- I forget his name. But a lot of people. Because education was important, then it was not important -- you know, it goes up and down in unions that are very very busy and very active. But I probably have not answered the question in full.

Was there a generational conflict? Was there a tension? Did you sit around -- I envision you driving in from Queens thinking, “I can't get these people to think about ‘X’.”

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I was asking about this generation gap, and whether or not you had a sense of frustration at not being able to -- I want to use the word indoctrinate, but I know that's not the right word -- transmit this vision.

I'm trying to remember now -- occasionally it would come up. Most of the time on the trips in, see, I would drive in with Davis for years and we would go home together. There would be other people in the car from Queens too, because Bill Taylor, George Glotzer and Jesse Olson all lived near each other. So we would invariably be talking about the union, because we virtually ate, lived -- it became terrible when our wives would come in to the car. They'd say, “Enough all ready.” Anyway. We were mostly talking about, “What are we going to do?” From time to time the question would come up, “How are we ever going to get so and so to understand something like this? Is it possible?” Davis said, “You have to take it easy.” We would sometimes bemoan their lack of desire to become informed. But it was not that we understood how to overcome it, or could we overcome it. It was a different track that they were on.

See Davis is best able to answer those questions, but one of the things that Davis used to do is that Davis would sit in his office, by himself, and just think. So that he was usually two years or three years down the pike. He was already thinking of what was going to happen two years from now, three years from now, in terms of the union, in terms of a campaign, in terms of the contract, and that kind of thing --