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trouble. She knew nobody else would. So when I came back it was a fait accomplit -- it was done, and no matter what I screamed about, he was on staff.” He said, “The only criteria she used for hiring staff was loyalty. She was not interested in ability.” That's why I think I've mentioned in the past that she had a habit of picking people who were not very competent.

Then he pointed out the other thing. He said, “You guys didn't know what she was doing. She was very cleverly and very carefully building a base for herself. Every time there was a vacancy in a board position, like the Hearing and Appeals Board,” he said, “You guys didn't care who was elected! You made a recommendation but if someone else ran and was elected, you didn't care who it was. She was very careful every time there was a vacancy to have somebody else nominated, no matter who we put forward. That person invariably was elected. This was true in many positions in the union. Every time there was a vacancy in the delegate assembly, she made sure that the person who filled that vacancy was a person loyal to her. She was building her base -- you guys didn't even know it.”

Why did you allow her to --

We really didn't know. The first thing, the building of the base and not knowing that -- why did we allow it? I don't think we paid any attention. We didn't think that people were doing that kind of thing.

The question of the other thing, of not confronting her, I think is a subtle form of racism -- or maybe an unsubtle form. Blacks can't do any wrong. Don't challenge blacks when they don't live up to the same standards. You don't want to create trouble. Be quiet on it, that kind of thing. He said it was a laughing stock among blacks that Doris could get away with anything.

Did she play it like a violin?

She played it very very well. Very very well. See I know that I personally had never had a relationship with Doris -- never. I was always in conflict with Doris. On small things, on big things -- on anything. I would make a proposal at a staff meeting, or an officers' meeting, that we were going to follow this thing and everybody would follow -- except Doris. I would go to Davis and say, “You can't do this thing.” He said, “What are you worried about? Don't worry about it.” I think that what happens is that in a case like that when a person realizes that you're getting away with it, you just up the ante and keep going further and further, and you know that that's what you can do.