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When I left I was in a position where my hands were tied, it was an impossible thing. I couldn't sleep, there was nothing that I could do. Staying would not help any. So we're left with history.

Okay. I think we'll probably discuss the question of your retirement later.

Let me throw in the 1199 News. We'll start fresh on --

Also if there's anything else that you want to say about the period leading up to Bread and Roses. So why don't we start with 1199 News.

I don't think I have anything to say on that period. I may have at a future time. I was thinking of one thing I wanted to say about 1199 News is that -- and I think we were successful in this -- that we did many things through 1199 News. We took a magazine that was a fairly traditional magazine when I first came there, but developed a number of things that were novel in labor. We were applying some of the ideas that were prevalent in commercial journalism, to try to reach the audience we had. Because we knew that very few people read the publication. When we were dealing with the hospital workers it was another challenge -- they had very limited ability to read. Therefore we had to constantly think in terms of short stories, very simple words, and pictures. There was the question of trying to figure out how to use -- -the magazine was always a very important thing. First of all for the leadership. It's the thing that gets in to the homes of every single member once a month. It's the best piece of propaganda that you can give out, and hope that it would be read -- and to decide if it could be, to make it so that it would be read.

So we did a number of things through the magazine, to try to develop it. We were, I think, much more successful than most unions. Because here too we were able to call upon talent, very gifted people. People like Stanley Glaubach, who was -- [telephone rings. Tape stops and starts.] People like Stanley Glaubach was to my mind a genius, who worked himself to death and who was tremendously devoted to this publication and to our union and to me. We were very very very close. He was interested in sports -- we used to go to football games and baseball games. But anyway. So that we would think through ideas of what to do. I don't have copies -- you've seen 1199. It's a newspaper now. But when the magazine started -- for example the magazine went through different stages. We're back to this size but we were this size all the time. We then increased it to 9 by 12 size because we wanted it to be easier to read. Now we weren't always ready to do it with pictures, that kind of thing. Then we jumped up further to Life magazine size. Stanley one day said -- he sent over to me a magazine.