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named Leonard Oliver.” He says, “He's on vacation now. He'll be back on Monday. I've left a message for him to contact you. You talk to him too.” On Monday I got a call from Len Oliver. Len Oliver said to me, “Jack Golodner told me that you went to see the NEA and that they talked to you about a planning grant.” “Yes,” I said. “What did you propose?” So I briefly told him on the phone. He said, “What are you doing tomorrow?” I said, “Why?” He says, “I'd like to come to New York and meet with you.” I said, “Sure -- come!”

So he came to New York to meet with me. Again he said, “Now tell me in detail what you told NEA.” By this time I had already written up the thing. I said, “This is what I told them, and this is what I've submitted to them. Carl Stover said I should submit a request for fifteen thousand dollars for a six month planning grant. I've submitted this.” He looked at it and he said, “Okay.” He took out of his valise a couple of booklets. He said, “I want you to read these booklets about the National Endowment for the Humanities. I want you for everything that you've got in there to write a Humanities component to what you're proposing. You read the booklets, you'll understand what I mean. Humanists, who've got to discuss it. You've got to involve people in talking about what you're doing. Make a request for a planning grant to us, and request twenty thousand dollars for six months.” I said, “Good! I'll do that. I did that. He said, “I think I can get it for you. It'll run concurrently with the NEA grant.” I figured so far so good, I might as well ask for a little bit more things. I said, “What about -- we have an oral history project going on. We're all ready in to the Leon Fink-Greenberg thing. We have a retirees program. We want to make another film.” He says, “When you put in the NEH project, put on a separate page -- a one pager -- a description of other things that you want to do, and send it along with me.” I write the proposal and I send the backgrounder -- I send it to him.

Several days later he calls me and he said, “I think it would be helpful if you came down to Washington and met with Marty Sullivan,” who was the deputy director of NEH. “He's interested.” I tell him that I've all ready set a meeting with Stover. Because Stover had called and set a meeting. He suggested that on the same day I come down, but I meet with them first. He says, “We're going to try to use the salami tactic. We're going to use us as a whip to get you through NEA, because it may be harder in NEA for you.” He says, “NEH is very interested in your proposal.” At the meeting that was attended by Marty Sullivan, Lynn Smith -- a woman -- was present. She's a person -- both Len and Marty and Lynn are people who I would be spending a lot of time with, on the phone and in person, for many years to come.