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people think that that's the way we're going to find the great artists of the world, by encouraging the workers to paint. The art and music and all that stuff is a very very highly skilled kind of thing.

Now it is true, however, that there are a number of performers, people who perform and write for working people, who are closer to workers than is our stuff. That's probably because of the change in the rock culture, in the pop culture and the folk culture. So you have Tom Joravich and those people who are the old, really the old Pete Seegers, but writing their stuff on a more modern scale -- influenced greatly by country and western music, and doing things that are closer to the people who like country and western.


Like Larry Penn.


That's right. Although you must always keep in mind -- I was always aware of this -- workers watch television. They see and they watch television programs, and television commercials. They're geared to very high quality stuff that comes through the tube. They're not going to settle for amateur night, they don't want that. They're not going to go out of their way for it. They'll do it on an occasion that's appropriate. That will work, and it's good and it should be done. I don't think one should rule out one or the other. One should do both. I don't think you can get in between it. I think you have to do one and the other. Just as I don't think you can expect that by bringing the kind of art that we've done to workers you're going to bring workers in to the museums. You should try to, that can't hurt you. That should be attempted, and that could be done. That could be done.


The thing that strikes me is that the emphasis of Bread and Roses was always on producing quality, that that was a theme or something that you were always extremely concerned about. I just want to explore a little bit the analogy that we have been talking about in reference to the Ray Rogers thing, that sometimes you sacrifice a little bit of quality because you have another value that you want to emphasize. That's to say you want to get workers more involved.


I don't think the analogy is too clear there. What we were out to do was to provide art and music for working people that was relevant and of high quality. You see I'll never forget a meeting that we had to evaluate the first year of the program, where I brought in the members of the advisory committee. I'll never forget what Ossie said, because that's very pertinent to what you're saying. Ossie said this, he said, “Bread and Roses” -- and they had been in it. They had done day to day, you know, touring all over with their performance, and under very difficult circumstances. Ossie said, “When we perform

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