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while it continued and we were involved in “Disarming Images,” which was a huge project, it was very different from the way it had been when I was in the union. So I was looking for other opportunities and other things to do. I was not prepared to fold my tent and slip away.

You weren't prepared to spend more free time, or --

More free time, no.

How come?

First of all I still felt that I had much to accomplish and to achieve and to contribute, and I have never been one who spent a lot of free time just relaxing.

Before we move on I would just be interested in how you would characterize Local 342 as a reflection or part of the broader labor movement.

342 is, in many ways, symptomatic of the problems inside the labor movement, because 342 is probably better than most unions in the sense that its ability to involve members, and particularly its ability to achieve very good standards for its members in contracts, in most areas. So in that sense it's typical, and in some cases it's far superior to the average, run-of-the-mill union -- and I don't say that disparagingly. It's a union of about 6,000 members. It has an industry, meat cutters, which is declining -- that's one of the problems of that industry. It did represent, and does represent, A & P, wall to wall -- and that's a problem in that industry in that the clerks in the supermarkets are for the most part part-time young people who turn over very, very rapidly and they're not going to remain in those jobs. The meat cutters, and to a certain extent the wrappers, are in jobs where they will be for most of their adult lives, and therefore it's an industry and they have to look to the union as an important part of their lives. This presents the union with an opportunity. At the same time, it's symptomatic of many of the problems in an industry today. The on-rush of automation, changes in the supermarket industry, have an impact on the workers and are bound to result in a large reduction in the number of butchers that will be on full-time jobs in the years ahead. It has already led to severe cuts in numbers.

To come back to the union itself. The union is run from the top by a very effective and able person in terms of running an organization of that kind. The president of the union -- it's largely a one person show. The staff, for the most part, carry out decisions automatically with very little input on policy or on ideas or suggestions. They act like