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he was born was helped to find some kind of employment and worked all his life.

You don't remember what town he was from?

I don't remember. My brother Henry is best, he's the resource on the family background of the parents.

Were your father and mother political people?

No, they were not political people. They were totally apolitical. They were primarily interested in seeing to it that their children got an education and could move up in the world, to become learned, and that was a very, very important thing for them.

When you were growing up, as a small child, did the family have enough resources, or did you suffer through times of great poverty, or what was family life like, do you remember?

Yes. The family was poor, but I do not recall being very deprived. It may be compared to the people in the neighborhood, we all seemed to be on the fairly same level. But in the Depression I do not recall that we were very, very badly off. As a matter of fact, we were always working. My brothers worked in the post office when they were attending college; we played in the band to add to our income. I remember working when I was a student in high school. I had a job at Gimbel's from 4:00 to 8:00 and all day Saturday for the sum of ten dollars a week, which was very, very high, and that would have to be in 1931 and '32. And everybody put their money into the family household's money, but I honestly don't recall being hungry, poor, or anything. There was always food to eat and there was a place to sleep, etc. We never were wealthy, but I cannot say that we were very deprived because of the lack of money.

What was your relationship like with your brothers? Were you close to them? Were you competitive with them?

My brothers were very, very brilliant in school and very, very popular.

Your older brothers?

I'm speaking of my older brothers now, Jack and Phil. It was a sort of a tough act to follow because I would come into the public school as they were leaving the school, and I came into the high school as they had graduated from the high school. They had achieved already very, very great reputations in scholarship and in all