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So the effort was made to sort of -- I don't know about the word “control” -- but to help Georgianna run the union, which meant working with her on different things, getting her to agree to do things. Now, that was very difficult because she didn't have any training in that field, and then she had problems with Eddie Kay, who was not an easy person to deal with.

He was the executive vice president.

Executive vice president. He was more blunt in his approach to her. You have the problems of that relationship.

I remember one time I went out to the West Coast for a reunion of the American Student Union's beginnings, and I was in touch with Dennis on the phone all the time, and Save Our Union had run a scheduled -- it was before the election -- scheduled a Saturday meeting for all the activists to come to prepare for how to work in the election, and they invited Ossie. Ossie got a telegram from Al Heaps telling him that he should not have any role and it was not his business.

And Al Heaps was the president if RWDSU.

President of the RWDSU. Our relations with them had become very, very difficult. They wanted to --

1199 still was a member of that [cross talk].

Yes. They wanted to throw us out. They didn't want us to affiliate with SEIU or anything. They wanted to outlaw the [cross talk]. Ossie decided, he called me, he said, “I'm coming. Nobody's going to tell me what to do.”

I called Dennis that night, and he said, “Boy, Ossie, you know, the delegates were crying, were crying.” He said, “It was wonderful.”

So I said, “Dennis, did we get it on tape?”

He said, “No.”

I said, “Okay. I'll call Ossie.” We didn't have it on tape.

Is this on your earlier oral history?

It's on the earlier. Maybe some of this is just too repetitive.

I think I remember [cross talk].

Yes. I don't want to repeat.