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tendency to create gulfs between the heads of the plan from the union and the union. It didn't really happen. [Tape interruption]

Okay.

As I knew Davis, he was totally selfless in the sense of he was never interested in getting more money or doing things that would help him personally. His main concern was the members of the union, all the time. I think of him among people like Harry Bridges, people like Jim [James] Matles and Julius Emspak of UE, people like John L. Lewis, Harry van Arsdale, [Walter] Reuther in the early period, and I think that history will remember Davis as an important labor leader for working people.

Do you want to talk a little bit about your relationship with him, what you brought to his presidency?

See, I was brought on by Davis at a time where I didn't have a job. I had been at 65, and that's in the history, and Davis would walk around in the streets with me on Sunday mornings. I think I've described that.

Yes. You've said that already.

Okay. But then, when I came on staff, Davis, who was famous for yelling at people, for some reason he never yelled at me, and also if I had ideas and went to him and said, for example, “We can't win in the hospitals just with walking the picket line. We've got to mobilize the media,” he would think, and he'd say, “Good idea.”

I'd say, “Who would do it?”

He said, “You do it. Do it.”

When I raised the question of Bread and Roses and I was going down to Washington for the endowments, for a meeting with them, and I was on the plane with Davis, and I said to Davis, “I think they're going to ask me what I want to do.” I sketched out a two-year program and said, “What do you think?”

He said, “Do it.” So I always had that relationship with Davis. It was a friendly -- and I learned a great deal from him. He had major weaknesses.

Discuss those.

Well, he had difficulty in relating with black women, and Doris in particular. He felt that he was grooming her, therefore he would try