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the -- you know, following the magazine, you're getting articles every place. He's being treated like a Who's Who.

One night Dennis called me at home on his cell phone, and he said, “Moe, I'm in the men's room of the hotel, and I've just got to tell you, I'm at this reception, and all the heads of the Democratic party and all the labor leaders nationally are here. They're standing on line to be introduced to me.” It was that kind of thing. We sent that article out to every union leader that we could get a list of.

Why did you do that? I'm sure it was not simply for personal aggrandizement, for self-promotion of Dennis Rivera as an individual. What was the union consideration?

My consideration with the union would be its impact on the management and on the workers. I know that the workers don't read the New York Times or the New Yorker. We tried our best to circulate it. The Guild people saw it.

Did you make reprints?

We made reprints. Mark Solomon reprinted it so it would look like the original article, and workers, people, read it, but management realized that they were taking on someone very important. So I always felt that if you use the media properly and you can get results, they will help everybody. That was my experience then with Dennis, and since then he would consult with me regularly.

What sorts of things, in the past decade, has he consulted with you about?

Well, every time the union got into a strike, very often, like in '89, I was home. I had a hip replacement, and I had discussed that with Dennis. I remember I could either have the hip replacement at this time or that time, depending on what was happening in the union. One question was, should I do it when the vote on affiliation should take place, or do it when there might be a strike. And I said, “When?” He said, “I think don't take it until the affiliation.”

The affiliation with --

With SEIU, the votes. So I said, “Okay. I'll have the hip replacement.” Then there was a strike, and I was out of it, but I was on the phone.

So he would call you during the strike?