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I never forgot it. I was so enraged by seeing this, that I transferred that rage to the hospitals, whom I regarded as being responsible. And from that moment on, I made everything into an issue of good versus evil, that what we were doing was good, and what they were doing was evil, and that they were doing it not so much to protect Knickerbocker or Logan, but to primarily, in response to the other major hospitals, who were not involved, Presbyterian, the Catholic Hospitals, who, in '59 when we walked out at seven hospitals, set up a League of Voluntary Hospitals and through their offices told the other hospitals, “Don't give in, because if you give in, the entire hospital field will crumble.”

And from that point on, it was good versus evil, and I used that. That motivated me to do all the things I did.

Can you think of other incidents like that?

Well, I can tell you incidents that stand out in my mind. I remember a thing that I won't forget, Thursdays ‘til Nine the musical revue that we did when I was in the Department Store Union, Local 1250 and 5, and the very successful musical revue about hospitals.

Late 1940s?

Late 1940s, with department store workers doing the acting, dancing, singing, after being auditioned with professionals guiding them. We had a preview of five performances that were done at the Fashion Trades High School in Manhattan on 27th and Broadway. It seated about sixteen to seventeen hundred people, and for the preview we invited some of the outstanding luminaries in the field of musicals. Irving Berlin was there, Harold Rome, who wrote Pins and Needles was there, and many, many other people like that filled the hall. In the balcony I was seated with Bill Michaelson, watching it, and when the curtain came down --

He was president of the --

President of Local 2, Gimbel's and Saks, in the department stores. When the curtain came down, they gave it like six or seven standing ovations. Bill said, “I guess we'll have to take it to Broadway,” and I said, “Not so fast.”

Then nothing happened. The workers had to return to their jobs. The sets were destroyed, and it was a great experience, but it was over. And just then I got a call from Dumont Television, which was the only