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And stayed. We got some concessions. One concession was the window, the right to secede. If we don't like it, we can get out. There were discussions and offers to the UE to come back. As a matter of fact, sections of the UE went in.

To the IUE.

To the IUE. It was impossible to get the UE in, because I don't think that Matles and Emspak were ever going to go back. They had their own reasons, they were political, theoretical, and personal. But the union was being chopped into bits. It was getting smaller and smaller and smaller. It kept losing and losing and losing. So it decided to remain as a small outfit. Everybody else went back. Many of them went back later, and they went back as shadows. We went back.

“We” being District 65, you're talking about?

65, 1199, you know, the Distributive Trades Council. They all went back together, went back holding their own and being able to stand inside that new situation on your own, but having the CIO label again.

Why was it so important to have the CIO label?

Couldn't organize. Raids. You spent all your time being raided.

So that the red-baiting of the CIO and the society in general was quite effective.

Of course, it was effective. To say it wasn't is looking at things on its head. Obviously it was effective. If it wasn't effective, no one would have gone back. We were running against the tide.

I personally think that Arthur and David knew that it was in their interest. They're weren't unhappy about an internal conflict, that it would be helpful to them.

In what way?

Gave them the whole coloration. “Look who's attacking us.” See, it wasn't easy for them get back in. They had to make certain concessions. People were saying, “They're still communists.” That kind of thing.

And you basically agreed with Osman?

I agreed with Osman. Davis agreed and came back, too, but Davis never went into this violent anti-communist stuff, although he