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Okay. We're bringing in, you know, in 1959 already, I'm going in with Bayard and King, but in '58, we're working with a couple of Hispanic legislators, whom I don't know from a hole in the wall, but I find out that they're Hispanic legislators, a guy who later becomes a judge, Emilio Nunez. He's now a judge, too, but he becomes friendly to us. [Herman] Badillo, by the way, was with us in '59. Our headquarters at Mt. Sinai were right next to where Badillo lived. So Badillo was with us the next year. But in this period, we're also involving blacks and Hispanics through the Amsterdam, remember, and El Diario. We're getting everybody there. Through the Times, we're beginning to hit the broad public on the problems of hospital workers. The Times editorials become very pointed in terms, “Of is it wise?” Is it fair? Is it just?” You know, the way the Times editorials can do it by taking a side without falling in. “Is it moral for workers not to have the right to have a union?” So that Clark reaches a point where he's like a co-conspirator.

We're going to have to get out.

Okay. It turns out that Evans Clark was married, he was a Norman Thomas socialist who was a professor of economics at Princeton before he came to the Times -- oh, no, but before he came to the Times, he was the director of the Twentieth Century Fund, and he also was the husband of Freda Kirchway, the editor of The Nation. I didn't know these things at the time. But nevertheless, he's a Times editor, he can't just go off on his own. He was very gifted. He was an elderly man. On his own, obviously, he had to convince the board and Sulzberger to support this position. I'll explain the whole German-Jew, Russian-Jew thing, because with Montefiore and Mt. Sinai, you're dealing with the German Jews. They're the people who are the powerful -- it's the Kuhn-Loeb, Lehman -- although Lehman became a supporter of ours in '59, even though he was -- he played a good role. So you're dealing with a very complex kind of thing. The Times publisher, Sulzberger, is from that and he was very close to those people.

Socially he was close to them?

Ah! I'll tell you the stories when we come to '59. But it's the same kind of thing. The whole industry is watching what's going to happen at Montefiore because there's always a fear, and they're rather confident that they can beat us, that Montefiore is going to hold the line and not let the union in. We reach a point, as this thing keeps building, the different level thing I mentioned, that the workers are beginning to show that they're ready to be more and more militant,