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of that there has to be a cutback in pensions, a wage freeze -- and then what really pissed him was that I had learned that the Comprehensive Employment Training Act (it's called CETA), which had been passed by the Congress to provide work by municipal agencies to hire in the private sector people who had been unemployed on a temporary basis, that that legislation had been perverted by the municipal unions with the city of New York engaging in what I considered to be a violation of the law itself. When the law was originally written, municipal workers who were laid off were not entitled to be rehired under the CETA provision, because then you would have a situation where the municipalities would simply end their liability to workers by laying them off and then picking them up under the federal payroll known as CETA. So there was a specific provision written in saying you couldn't do that. And then when municipal layoffs became widespread, not for that purpose but simply because the cities couldn't afford to keep their people on, then they changed the law and allowed municipal employees to be eligible if they were laid off for a certain number of days -- I think it was only 15 days -- and if it was a bona fide layoff -- then they could be rehired under CETA. CETA is a program that's got a maximum of $10,000 by way of salary. But what the municipal employees then did was not