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This was a call that came in from Senator James Buckley to Congressman Koch, and Congressman Koch's side of the conversation was tape-recorded with his permission.

Okay, just so you know what that conversation was about: I've introduced legislation which would provide that where the government brings an action or you are required to bring an action against the government, either directly or through an agency (and that would be in the criminal area, in the civil area and in the public law area or -- there are four different areas), that if you were successful on certain reasonable terms and conditions, that you could recover the costs of your attorney's fees, which today you cannot -- and many times you can win a case and go broke, go broke winning it.

Wasn't there just a court decision on this or similar to this situation involving the man in the air force.

The C5A.

It was called the C5A case.

Right. And that is not what triggered me. I've been into this now for over a year, and what I have tried to do: I developed my own bill, and then I thought why not combine forces. My own bill originally related only to criminal cases, because I thought