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but let's say honest graft. And also to put blacks into positions of authority whether or not they were qualified. There was no question in my mind that there was initiated under Jones a quota system which would give the blacks 25%, a third of whatever offices there were, and it wouldn't make any difference if you had a qualified person or an unqualified person -- it had to be filled by a black. And I would say the black judges have not been the best in terms of overall calibre -- have not been. And you can say that relates to education, it relates to whatever it was that deprived them. I'm not interested in that frankly. For me, I'm not interested in redresssing history by putting an incompetent black judge on the bench simply because he's a black. I just don't believe in that. But there are reformers who do, and today that is in fact the system. Blacks get a certain percentage of whatever judgeships are available in the borough of Manhattan. In 1961, but it may have been before that and it may have been after, but whatever the year: the reform caucus, then known as CDV, Committee of Democratic Voters, that they endorsed Paul O'Dwyer for councilman at large, Ollie Sutton, now a judge, and the brother of Percy Sutton, was a candidate for that same position. And Percy Sutton came before the convention and denounced us by saying if we did not select Ollie Sutton, his brother, for the position of councilman at large, we were all racists. And I felt: what a terrible thing to say, because