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But I thought it was such an outrage. And I'm not now talking about Jews as a Jewish issue; I'm talking about... and I always like to talk about some poor Italian in Brooklyn. How angry he must be to know if he were black he could apply, but because he's a poor Italian, he can't apply. And you have to understand that most of the money goes into this 02 program as opposed to the other three programs. There is a program that he can apply to -- that's the 03: “others.” But it gets the smallest part of the monies available for this kind of loan. And that's really the whole story.

Let's go back to where you had come back from Mississippi and gone to the Democratic convention at Atlantic City. What did you do on the civil rights issue immediately after that or did that end that particular episode for you?

Well, that was a very good year for civil rights, ‘64. There was the passage of various civil rights legislation. It's hard for me to remember whether it was ‘64 or ‘65, but I think it was ‘64 -- that was the year I went to Montgomery, Alabama on the Selma March. I did not go to Selma. I did not start off at Selma when they took that long march that went on for a number of days, but I met them, as did hundreds of others - maybe thousands of others. We went down there the day that they were