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And at one point somebody yelled about the cops. I don't remember what the cops were doing. I said, “Don't yell at those cops in the crowd. They're trying to do their job. They have a crowd control problem. They're decent.” And Herbert Hill, as I recall it, began to berate the cops. I don't remember whether he called them pigs or not, but it was comparable language. Just to put it in context, I think he spoke first and berated the cops, and then when I got on, I referred to the cops in a nice way, saying it was wrong to berate them this way. They weren't doing anything wrong, they weren't hurting anybody; they were trying to do what their job is with the traffic on the street, whatever it was. And then he attacked me and called me a hack. (laughs) If there's a hack, it's he. But in any event, it's one of those things that you go through. That's all I can tell you about that particular episode.

I wonder if we can identify Herbert Hill a little bit more. Do I recall correctly that he actually was a labor affairs adviser for the NAACP?

Still is. He's very smart, but he's nutty.

Did you get involved with him enough to sense whether or not he thought he was highly respected within the NAACP? Or did you ever have any feeling that they weren't always too happy with him?