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Oh, I've always gotten the individuals, always, always. But I've always been afraid to push them as an association for fear they'd turn it down and be against it.

Now, curiously enough, not only was the Heart Association not very dynamic but the Rockefeller Foundation, which was the leading private foundation interested in the field of medical research, never went dynamically into the field of supporting heart research.

For the same reasons?

I don't know. They felt there weren't leads, or, I don't know what the reasons were, but they just didn't.

In 1948, Albert and I felt that even although they had gotten a large sum of money with which to start their national campaign that the New York City committee that represented a large number of important cardiologists in the city were not getting very far, and we offered to supply the New York City Heart Committee with $25,000 if they would get an additional $25,000 in matching money to increase their drive for funds. This was matched by Mr. John D. Rockefeller, Sr., whose wife was ill at this time with heart trouble. However, neither the Rockefeller Foundation nor the Rockefeller Institute has ever made a major project of trying to elucidate arteriosclerosis, which is the main cause of heart deaths and the main cause of death in the United States, up until this time.

Now, in the late '50s a Dr. Arendts, at the Rockefeller Institute has been very important in the study of cholesterol and