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On the crucial ballot Albert decided that he would try to persuade his delegation to go for Wendell Willkie. On the delegation was a man called James Kempner, a very, very conservative Republican, and Robert McCormick, and how Albert managed to sell them, God only knows! He did, and the Illinois delegation, which is a large delegation, turned the tide for Willkie, and it became a bandwagon for him after that. Now, if Albert hadn't been there or had not done it, Willkie might still have been nominated, but there's no doubt that it was a hinge at that particular moment.

That was a psychological moment for a switch.

Yes, and Albert caused it. I can't say that I delivered him either, even though Willkie, of course, thought I had.

Did you have anything to do with the enthusiasm in the galleries?

No, I had nothing to do with it at all. That was organized by others, I think Oren Root and maybe Davenport, although I'm not sure.

I remember going back to a hotel after the nomination was over for a drink with some people, and sitting at the next table was Rita Van Doren. She was deeply involved with Willkie. I remember her weeping hysterically and saying to whomever she was with, “I've lost him forever now.” It was pitiful you know, because it's