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I think they felt more and more that it was almost hopeless. I've never seen men who worked so hard, who were so dreined and so almost despairing as those two men were that night. They were frantic to find help, and they would keep up their courage by talking hopefully, but Wednesday showed that it was hopeless.

Now, of course, Kennedy felt that he needed Johnson to win and Johnson accepted it, really to my total astonishment and to everyone else's, I think.

This proved to be a difficult thing for labor to accent, didn't it? How did Reuther feel about that?

Well, I don't know. I think he felt that he was protected because he felt that kennedy was a friend of labor.

Johnson's position I didn't understand at the time, but I'd always had a feeling of great interest and affection for Johnson because he had given very practical support to interests that I had--I'd given support to interests that he had--and he understood the exercise of power completely, fantastically well. He understood the mechanism of the Congress as it stood in a way that, I suppose, very few people ever have, and he enjoyed the exercise of power.

Did I say anything about to what extent I had known Kennedy before this?

You merely said that you had known him only slightly, hadn't had much of a relationship.