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He's a manipulator, isn't he?

Yes, he's really good. Now, I think he's learned something in this process -- you know, that the doctors aren't this perfect, that all doctors don't necessarily think alike.

Maybe you can help persuade him into another Fogarty.

Yes, he says he wants to be Hill and Fogarty all in one. Well, God bless him, we needhim.

Then, having been defeated in the attempt to get the Senate bill exactly, we got a House bill that really is possible to live with I think, but it's like a Goldberg contraption. However, I think that the President is so committed that it's perfectly workable.

It was signed into law on the 23rd of December, '71.

Then it came to the Senate, and there were various maneuvers in the Senate because Nelson was still against the Senate bill, and they got into conference and in about four conferences and each time Rogers wouldn't give an inch.

Who represented the Senate in the conference?

They had the whole subcommittees, both sides, and they all sat absolutely dumb, and finally Kennedy said, “Well, I don't know what to do with them, I can't get any place with them” -- after four meetings.

And Rogers was the one who held out?

Rogers was the one that held out. He had all these people and