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telephoning to everybody all over the country at the drop of a hat. I think it's a good thing if he has cut that down.

Have you had any other contacts with him in meetings or anything since he's become president?

Oh, yes. As I say, I had the telephone call about Tom Mann, which, incidentally, came to me at my home on a Saturday morning, as I recall. And then I had a rather unusual call not from the president, but from his closest White House associate, Bill Moyers, a few weeks later. This was really funny. This wasn't really the president, but it was the White House who called me up one day at my office to tell me that a man named Kermit Gordon would be in town and would I please see him. Well, for anybody at the White House or anyone else to feel it was necessary to call me up to ask if I would see Kermit Gordon, who of course I knew, as any informed person would know, was director of the budget, and therefore one of the most important people in the United States government. It would seem to me so silly to have them call me from the White House to tell me that Gordon was going to call for an appointment; would I please be sure to see him? Of course I'd see him. This seemed a sort of foolish elaboration.

It so happened that Gordon did call and of course we did see him that same day. This was in connection with some propaganda work, and I use “propaganda” in the best sense. Gordon had come up to New York to do this for the new budget, the president's budget, quite an unusual thing. And the hour or so that he spent with us was very helpful, but it was most unusual to have the director of the budget come up to New York and talk to