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the days when I used to complain, particularly to Turner, this was the answer that I got quite often.

Well, I got two kinds of answers. One answer would be: “Yes, I agree with you, that was terrible and it shouldn't have happened.” That was, I think, the more frequent answer. But occasionally I would get - particularly from Turner's successors, I would get the answer that, “Well, I just don't feel that this was editorialization.”

And I gradually tapered off in arguing about it.

Scotty Reston was not strong on this?

I don't remember any particular discussion with him about that, but on the question of columns and columnists under their own name, that's a totally different matter.

I think that's clear. Scotty's successor was?

That was Abe Rosenthal, wasn't it? Yes. Yes, Rosenthal, I think, succeeded Scotty as the top news executive of the Times, yes. I do think that there is a different perception, on his part and on my part, of what is and what is not editorialization in the news.

Part of the problem is, I suppose, that interpretive journalism has become so much more important than it was.