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Mansfield. I'm certain that I must have talked to him. I don't think I knew [Secretary of Defense Robert] McNamara, and I don't think I --

What was your contact like with McNamara?

With Mansfield?

With McNamara.

And [Senator] Frank Church, for example, in the political field. Well, I would fairly frequently go down to Washington and talk to people, political people, really almost from the start. In fact, even before I became editor in charge of the paper, I used to do that as a member of the editorial board. I went to Washington and went to political conventions and so on, to Washington quite frequently and just talked to political people of all stripes, whether it was Joe [Senator Joseph] McCarthy or Frank Church, to name two people about as far apart as I can think of. And as far as the opposition to the increasing American involvement in Vietnam -- to the American policy among leading Democrats -- I certainly was aware of it. I can't remember specific conversations, but the broad answer to your question is “yes.” I talked to a lot of these guys. I got to know Frank Church, for example, moderately well. Mansfield I knew -- another -- that Mike [Monroney], whom I knew very well, Oklahoma Democrat -- I don't think he was so involved in this issue, although it's hard to remember. Anyway, broadly speaking, my answer is yes. But I have to temper that by saying that I don't remember any specific, inside information.