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editorial position. But Punch Sulzberger, who was the one that counted, was, at least in the early days. Of the other top people around the Times, only [James] Reston, who was writing as an independent Times columnist in Washington, also took, as I recall it, pretty much the same critical view as the editorial page did.

[END TAPE ONE, SIDE TWO; BEGIN TAPE TWO, SIDE ONE.]

This is Tape two of Session eight with John Oakes.

I'm pretty sure -- I'm not quite sure, if in this period Rosenthal, Abe Rosenthal, was on the third floor, was one of the news executives. I think he was. If not then, certainly later on, he was a very strong critic of our policy. I can't be any more precise than that.

One of the reasons I asked that question is years ago I interviewed Homer Bigart for the New York Times, and there was a lot of discussion in that interview about the resistance he got from the newsroom editors.

From the third floor, from the newsroom.

From the editors.

Down there.

Yes. To printing his copy.