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-- very pleasant ones, once I had gotten reconciled to the fact that I was going to have to resign. They should have been rather smooth. Instead of that, they were very bad, and I feel still, of course, I feel still outraged about this every time I think about it.

Sure.

Shall we break for lunch?

Yes.

[TAPE INTERRUPTION]

We had a lunch break, and we're starting again. I was curious as to whether you thought at that time, when Frankel was named editor of the editorial page, along with some of your colleagues in and outside of the Times, if this did indicate a change in editorial policy of the paper, if perhaps that policy was going to change and become more conservative, for example.

Well, I can only answer that by saying that Punch specifically stated to me that he had absolutely no objection or quarrel with the editorial policy of the Times as I was directing it all these years and that the sole reason for pushing my retirement as editor of the editorial page, say, two years or eighteen months or whatever earlier than it would have normally come, was solely because he was afraid that he would lose Max Frankel's services. And since he had, for reasons that we've already discussed, wanted to announce Frankel's appointment to this job right away, in conjunction with the announcement of Rosenthal's appointment to