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environmental protection. And they became the core group of what's become a very important environmental organization.

So I guess my involvement in active environmental organizations really came about because I had begun, in the very early days, to write about environmental matters in the newspaper. I've never had any real scientific knowledge about this. I've just felt that as a matter of public policy, it was very important to try to save the environment, to the degree that we could do it. And if we don't do it -- and this goes for water, land, trees, forests and animals, too -- life isn't going to be worth living. So I guess that's about it. I think that's about the best way I can answer your question.

Yes, it is. I think that's interesting. Were there other organizations you were a member of that would be interesting for us to talk about?

Oh, yes. Besides NRDC, of which, by the way, I'm still what they call a founding trustee. I'm not terribly active, but just a few days ago I was at a meeting of the advisory board of the magazine, of the wonderful magazine NRDC puts out, called Amicus, which is a very first-class magazine. And about a month ago, was down at an NRDC board meeting, the theme of which was trying to save the Everglades. So I'm active at it in that sense. Other environmental organizations I've been quite active in -- i.e. on the board of -- include the Wilderness Society, as far back as the '50s, the National Parks and Conservation Association [NPCA], and -- very important -- the Nature Conservancy, one of the best.

Not just environmental, but other human rights organizations or --