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Did you go to camp at about what age, would you say?

Twelve till about 15 every summer I went to camp.

Well, that was sort of a broadening experience, being out of New York.

Yes, I was with Morty Rodgers. Then later on when Dick started to grow up, Dick Rodgers and Larry Hart.

Another one!

He was at P.S. 10, too.

Did you have to have a tie and coat?

Oh, sure, and we got very fancy. I remember hats were two bucks in those days. On May 15th, every man in New York got a straw hat; September 15th, out. This was the rule. And if you wore a straw hat after September 15th, you were fair game. People would tear it up. Anybody who came to a ball game. after September 15th with a straw hat on would be mobbed. But they were only $2. I remember Rukeyser (he was always the pompous one in our crowd) arriving at Riverside Drive and Broadway (there's a sharp drop down to the Drive) one day with a derby on. This Dietz and I considered an absolute outrage. We were tough kids, you know. And Dietz and I understood each