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We didn't try. Harold Guinzburg at Viking was one of my best friends, and there are some publishers who really respect the rights of others. Viking and Random House have always been that way. We would never dream of doing anything to hurt the other.

It used to be said that publishing is a gentleman's world, although people think maybe that's changing to a certain extent.

Gentleman's world, my eye. Some of the most famous publishers in America are veritable pirates. They'll have dinner with you one night and steal an author from you the next day. And if that's their game, we'll play it. But there are certain publishers that we feel very close to, Viking and Knopf in particular. That's why we were able to get together years later with Alfred Knopf, because there were bonds of friendship and trust there. I only wish we could have Viking with us, too. Harold was one of my great friends, and his son Tom we deeply love, Phyllis and I. We've seen him grow up. He's one of my favorite people, Tom.

Would you say Joyce was a temperamental person?

By the time I met him he was a little bit on the--

How old was he when this occurred?

I guess he was in his fifties. When he removed those