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representing-- the closest you come to that today is in Jesse Jackson, who is a primarily political element, a leadership political candidate seeking to build a coalition that is not quite the civil rights movement. It's quite different. So those are the things that seem to me to be indicative of the realities of the present, which I don't see as particularly positive. In fact, to be quite honest with you, I think that they're negative now. I hope now that will persist. It may be that it's a pendulum process that we're confronted with. But when people say to me the pendulum is-- you know, the struggle for racial justice in the United States has gone up and down since Emancipation. However, the pendulum analogy is all right if the pendulum isn't broken or destroyed.

Do you have the sense that there's been, in this rise of conservatism, a number of middle or really perhaps upper-class blacks that have become quite conservative themselves or there are just some that have-- and the Reagan Administration has tapped some of those? I'm thinking, for instance, of a person like Clarence Pendleton of the Civil Rights Commission.

I think of Clarence Pendleton as an idiosyncratic individual. Pendleton, I personally believe, may be a disturbed individual, and I would not want to generalize my observations of Pendleton to too many others. There are a few--