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opposition could see my position as being narrowly race, although I always believed, and I still believe, that educational issues and racial issues in schools are inextricable. I think that you educate white youngsters by broadening their views of the commonalty of man, rather than isolating them. And certainly you educate black youngsters by having the educational institutions be models of diversity, rather than separation and segregation.

But that is a position which I hold today, and still, I think, essentially a minority position. Not just on Regents, but-- well, let me come to today. I mean, after that period-- it was really, in a sense, dominated by conflict, my being in conflict with the majority of my Board. And not very much support from the others. Chancellor Couper had retired. Ewald [“Joe”] Nyquist, who was the Deputy Commissioner under Allen, had taken over the commissionership. I mean, he was elected by the Board as Commissioner. Nyquist is a very liberal person, but also is a realistic person, I guess. And I had some conflicts with Nyquist, although I admired a lot about it.

I don't know how long that period lasted, but it was a period in which I would be disturbed about going to Regents' meetings. I felt isolated. My ulcers would act up a few days before Regents. In fact, I would be told that Regents was coming up by my stomach telling me. And I'd come back from a Regents' meeting and I couldn't wait to talk with Mamie about what was happening and what was not happening, and during that period I was sort of on the verge of resigning. And she helped me toward a more balanced view,