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college professors, you know, and psychologists and what not. Kate was always very disturbed about any kind of preferential treatment on the basis of her father's and her mother's professional status. And by the way, so was Hilton. I used to kid Kate. I said, “Kate, you act as if we had gone to jail or something.” But they're wonderful. I like both. They have a very genuine, solid sense of justice and right. They are the beneficiaries of that. And Mamie and I were proud of them.

At least somewhat in this context also, these surveys that the TIMES did, another concern of many of the black parents that had moved to the suburbs were that-- here again a perception at least they had--at the black students were more likely to be encouraged to go onto full educational courses and less encouraged, as a group at least, to go on to college than the whites. Has that been your impression out there in the suburbs?

Well, I gave you my impression as I got it from Kate, that this was a class thing. Well, of course, there weren't that many black students in the Hastings school, and the blacks who were sent to the Hastings school from the Graham School or some of the other correctional-- not correctional, but, you know, the youth homes in the area-- they were generally selected, they were the ones whom the counselors thought were better able to compete academically.

But the blacks who lived in the area, I never heard them complain about the schools shunting their children. You know, one of the things