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--from about 1963 on when of course Stokeley Carmichael or the Black Panthers could get publicity?

Yes, and don't forget, after Brown and after Martin Luther King, the publicity to “civil rights leaders” increased, and Malcolm was one of those who was outside of the acceptable civil rights leaders such as Roy Wilkins and Whitney Young, James Farmer, and Martin of course. But he was there! I remember A. Philip Randolph asking me to help him bring together Malcolm, Whitney, Roy, and others. I think this was before 1963. Roy refused to have any meeting with Malcolm. I think I told you this before.

I think you may have gone in to the Randolph effort on that.

Sure. So, this I don't think came after. I know it came before the autobiography and was indicative of the willingness of Malcolm to communicate quietly with other civil rights leaders.

And at the risk of the interviewer's intrusion here, if I did not put this in before I met Malcolm X in 1959 and he let me go in to what was billed as an Afro-Asian Bazaar in Harlem, and I was the only white present and listened to his anti-white, anti-Christian, anti-Semitic rhetoric.

Which, by the way, he got over.