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devastating kind of thing. The South African government says that there's no way that this can be waged peacefully or rationally, you know, comfortably. They've made all those approaches impossible now.

of course, after the business leaders met with the exiles, particularly Oliver Tambo here, there were some clerics that wanted to have a similar meeting and they picked up their passports or worse.

That's right. I was hoping, hoping, hoping. The older I get, the less I understand about my fellow human beings.

Of course, isn't there also perhaps an episode that is far more damaging to the Botha regime than any disinvestment or divestment could be, and that's when the international bankers pulled the credit rating.

That's right. It'll be even more so, I guess, with disinvestment. I don't know why our American corporations are still--by still, I mean within the last few months, reluctant to say, “Look, this is a bad investment.” Even if they are not going to be dealing with this in the human, moral value terms, and it is a bad investment.

Haven't a couple of them already done that, at least partially?

Yes.